Carnivore not a Ketogenic diet?

#1

Hi everyone. I came across this video of Dr. Saladino and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, which I thought was very interesting.

(Some of you might already know Dr. Paul Saladino was still a strict carnivore when he interviewed Dr. Gabrielle Lyon in this video. And later changed his mind, and added honey and fruit to his diet.)

Dr. Gabrielle doesn’t think the carnivore WOE is a ketogenic diet, and doesn’t like ketogenic diets, thinking them unhealthy in the long term, and that one is better off cycling in and out of them. What she is very positive about is the carnivore diet, though she doesn’t see it as a ketogenic diet.

As to the title of the video, they debunk this also.

Before you comment to my post, please take some time to watch and listen to the video. (Unless you’ve already seen it and remember it).

#2

I never ever heard that protein causes cancer, why would it? :smiley:

And I try to be silent as no way I would ever watch such a long video…

#3

Hi Shinita, Dr. Paul Saladino says in the video that the claim that animal protein leads to cancer is not true, and is led by faulty evidence, as in the subjects being overfed and fed other junk as well.

The video is very interesting. I watched it in parts. It is worth listening to I think, but when I don’t have the time to watch a video or listen to a podcast I always bookmark it for later, and then watch it in parts, if I have to. It was also helpful that the video had divided its different topics into those different parts so I could choose which topic and then switch back to a different topic. At least, that was possible when I watched it. There’s a lot more to this talk than what the title of it suggests, and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon states in the video she is carnivore herself, and she believes in a diet higher in protein, lower in fat. That’s the opposite to what I do, but it’s interesting. My mind is always open to new information.

#4

I CAN’T watch videos about eating unless they are interesting and very short. I tried.
I have about 516 videos in my watch later too… Sigh.
Sometimes I just listen to videos while playing, it doesn’t work for deep things though as I like games where I need my brain…

Different topics in different parts, well that’s useful :slight_smile:
We will see.

Yeah that’s why I have 516 unwatched videos :frowning: I always grab some new as they are just so interesting! :frowning: And I watch way more than what I put away… I am too curious.

#5

Me too Shinita, much too curious. If you want the different topics in the different parts you’ll have to go to the actual youtube page with the video.

#6

Carnivore lifestyle WILL ALWAYS be a ketogenic life for your body.

Key being you might not be ‘total ketosis’ onto ‘whatever life and body’ deem fit to be in that state.

We carnivores are never in ‘active ketosis all the time’ in some numbers on some strip to calc just just…we burn and ketones change how a ‘ketone burning body’ with time will never hit 'some strip, simpe as that.
but we are a very true ketogenic eating plan every single day :slight_smile: Which means we BURN ketones for life, not glucose so…

from your post: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon states in the video she is carnivore herself, and she believes in a diet higher in profile, lower in fat. That’s the opposite to what I do, but it’s interesting. My mind is always open to new information

------------OF COURSE YOU DO YOU! you do opposite and I get that cause YOU ARE NOT HER ever and you are NOT on her timeline as she ‘spouts’ what it takes for her individally.

remember one this carnivore is highly personal to each of us, on our time on plan. My 6 yrs is will never ever be your 2 yrs in or another’s 4 yrs in…so big mind here…as much as info we can read we find interesting for sure…do you on zc for you only at all times. Never ever go wrong doing just that.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

I don’t know where the idea came from that protein causes cancer, since protein is mostly not metabolised. The constituent amino acids in the protein we eat are mostly reconstituted into new proteins and used for repairing tissues and building new tissues. A small amount is deaminated; the nitrogen being used to control blood pressure, and the remnant of the molecule being converted into glucose to feed cells that require it.

The claim has been made that eating red meat causes cancer, but the problems with meat are supposed to be other chemicals found in it, not the proteins. But in any case, that claim has also been thoroughly debunked. The IARC, part of the FAO, published a report a few years ago, in which most of the so-called “evidence” they cited failed to back up their claims. (Dr. Georgia Ede has a couple of great lectures on YouTube, in which she discusses this.) The well-known oncologist, Dr. Thomas Seyfried, argues that it is the metabolic damage from glycation and oxidation caused by a high-glucose (carbohydrate) diet that causes all cancers.

Ketone levels are often lower on a carnivore diet than they are on a ketogenic diet. And those levels are lower than the levels seen during fasting. But the point of eating keto or carnivore is not to be “in ketosis” per se, but rather to be in a metabolic state where fatty-acid metabolism is prioritised over glucose metabolism, and a carnivore diet certainly promotes that metabolic state.

As for long-term concerns about staying in ketosis, I think they are largely bogus. We are so conditioned to think of carbs as “heart-healthy” that such a mindset is hard to overcome. As Gary Taubes points out, however, we used to consider carbs as fattening. They only became “heart-healthy” once Ancel Keys managed to convince everyone to fear fat. But from all indications from anthropological data, we evolved being in ketosis for the most part, since isotopic analyses of bones from archaeological digs indicates that our ancestors ate an almost exclusively meat diet. Agriculture as a human practice is only about twelve thousand years old, whereas our species evolved over two million years.

#8

Hi Fangs, I meant protein, not profile, lol, must’ve been the automatic spell check on my phone. I’ve since corrected it. Yes, I agree 100% that we do US at all times. I just found what Dr. Gabrielle Lyon had to say interesting. As you may remember from a previous post of mine, I had to add back in a few vegetables (in small quantities) and this resolved my fiber issue. I am higher on the fat as I put butter on literally everything, eat a tub and a half worth of heavy whipping cream, and eat my fatty meats as well. I much prefer both the dairy and animal fat to the protein, that’s just me, though I also eat animal protein, say bacon and eggs, or two chicken legs earlier in the day, and some ground beef or a couple porkchops in the evening. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon talks in the video about how she thinks a ketogenic diet can put too much stress particularly on a female body and cause hormone and thyroid issues. It doesn’t seem like she thinks those same problems would happen on the carnivore WOE. But she believes remaining in ketosis can actually be damaging. As remaining in ketosis is my current greatest hope in tackling my lipoedema (to which there supposedly is no cure), I certainly hope that isn’t true.

#9

yea we do thru media interests and agendas LOL

but you are specking real truth science and you can’t say cause we all know it ain’t real in that blanket statement ever. One can’t ever find any direct and solid fact correlation, done deal on that one!

we ‘are brought’ thru ‘them’ to right where they want us…yes I am that thinker cause there is ) and I MEAN 0 saying meat causes cancer…and ‘cancer’ is so wide on age and genetics, and environment and a ton more yet 'meat is the issue; is SO beyond me ever that I can’t even say…

#10

ok feel ya.

she thinks. hmmm…show me science then we got a way forward. but like you mentioned we can absord info on ‘others and their experiences’ but it will never ever be ourselves…but show me actual studies ‘for real’ and showing actual ‘real results’ on real info of that science study can we then…go forward. Cause so many just ate carnivore and thrive. More one manipulates this elmination zc menu one more worries and feels worse…cause one eating Keto plan, every very very low low carb will never be an all in carnivore result person? so…

again just big ol’ chat on it all. but if a very very low veg intake ones does well on is all the science I need, cause that individual thrives, what is better than that against ‘a guess’ :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

(Joey) #11

I appreciate the offering, but spending 90 minutes on a click-bait title (“Does protein cause CANCER??”) is beyond my patience.

My life is too short for such silliness, especially now that I must worry about cancer. :roll_eyes:

(p.s. - Yeah, carnivore is an inherently ketogenic way of eating.)

#12

Hi Joey, although I actually went through cancer I’m not going to worry about such things, as you say life is too short. I too thought the title was click-bait-ish, I found this video because someone in the forum had posted it in a thread I found interesting, unfortunately I forgot which forum member and which thread. But I bookmarked the video back then with the intention to watch it, and as I had some time on my hands today while my boys were at school, I did. And I did find the video interesting. Is it going to change the way I eat? No. I follow my body when it comes to that.

(Joey) #13

Don’t get me wrong … I’m just saying it’s a very long video given its “protein = cancer?” headline - so I’m a hard pass on this one.

Of course, if it were 3 minutes long I’d likely give it a spin :wink: (We know what I am, it’s a matter of price)

Health challenges give us a great deal to ponder (and oftentimes blessings to count). I hope you are finding renewed strength and joy, and learning much along the way! :vulcan_salute:

(Alec) #14

I will have a go at watching this, but Saladboy has always just annoyed me, so it is going to be a painful 90 minutes. However, I am prepared to take one for the team here.

My pre-watching reaction is:

  1. What utter nonsense that carnivore is not a ketogenic diet. Of course it is.
  2. What utter nonsense to even suggest that protein causes cancer. Of course it doesn’t. To even suggest this is just daft.
  3. Anyone suggesting to me that I need to carb cycle is going to have to provide some pretty compelling evidence that it is required. Right now my body is doing so well without the plants that something pretty extraordinary has got to come along to convince me to eat plants again. They are just nasty!
#15

Hi Alec. I think Dr. Gabrielle Lyon’s advice to cycle in and out of ketosis (though she didn’t really go much into detail) was more aimed at women as she aired concerns about a ketogenic diet stressing a female body, affecting hormones and thyroid. She seems much happier about the carnivore diet and states she’s a carnivore herself. Dr. Paul Saladino states in the video the claim that animal protein leads to cancer is false, led by false evidence. When you go directly to the youtube video it should be divided into different parts for each topic, that’s how I watched the video, in parts.
I also listen to Dr. Paul Mason and Dr. Malcolm Kendrick, it’s just I am aware we will always be prone to confirmation bias, and so I listen to different point of views.

(Alec) #16

Absolutely. 100% agree. I am listening to the vid now, and so far Dr Lyon is simply saying “eat more animal protein as you age”. Can’t agree more with that!

I am actually enjoying this… I think because this is from 3 years ago. Saladboy seems actually quite sensible. Long before his fruit and honey phase.

Interesting statements from Dr Lyon that I don’t understand: “I am on a carnivore diet” “I do not support ketogenic diets”. Not yet explained: doesn’t make sense to me (yet). Unless she is saying don’t do keto with plants…. Aha, she just explained that she doesn’t understand the ketogenic diet: she thinks it is a fixed 70% fat, 20% protein and 10% carbs ratio.

She clearly thinks that keto has to be high fat, and if you are not getting high fat, then it is not ketogenic. Not entirely sure how she gets low fat on a carnivore diet… is she trimming the fat off all her meat?

Her choice of words around this section where she is talking about keto diets suggests to me she really doesn’t know, pure speculative opinion. Her main message is: eat more protein!

#17

Yes, that does makes sense, about eating more protein as we age. I am 39. I think my protein intake is certainly not low, I had two chicken legs earlier today and four pork chops in the evening. (And lots of whipped cream sometime in between those two meals, so that was my fatty, additional meal)

As to Dr. Saladino later adding honey and fruit to his carnivore WOE. I don’t think it is not sensible to adjust one’s WOE if need be, but as to him stating everyone should do the same, that’s rather less sensible, as there are so many individual factors and variables. I have reinstated a few vegetables (in small quantities) and this works for me. Some days I will pair my meat/fowl/fish with those vegetables, and other days I will happily go without vegetables, but I listen to what my body wants.

Just don’t get stuck in the comment section to the video like I did, reading all the varied responses …

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #18

You know, people make weird distinctions. For example, there used to be a group of forum members who made a big deal about the difference between “keto” and “low-carb” when there is really none. Any diet low enough in carbs to get the person into ketosis is a ketogenic diet, and there’s no point in cutting the carbs if you’re still going to eat too much of them to get into ketosis.

So Dr. Lyon is probably hung up on the difference between meat-only versus meat plus carbs.

#19

Hi Paul. I think Dr. Lyon was also hung up on the difference between a diet high in fat and low protein and vice versa. She seemed to think a ketogenic diet must be high in fat and low in protein, so perhaps she wasn’t really thinking broadly enough about it, as there are many ketogenic WOEs, or rather, the ketogenic WOE can be adjusted and made to fit the individual. It seemed as if she thought if you were on carnivore and your protein intake was high, then it wouldn’ t be a ketogenic diet. Perhaps she was merely thinking of the original ketogenic diet designed to help children with epilepsy.

(Alec) #20

This is indeed what she thought, which is of course just plain wrong. She and Saladboy also agreed that carnivore also wasn’t even low carb “because the body turns lots of protein into carbs”… it was at that point I rolled my eyes, switched off and moved on. It is stuff like this that just confuses the living daylights out of people. It is just soooooo misleading. Makes me angry.