Carnivore forum


#21

I think it would have to scale, and very likely be a cumulative thing. I don’t think a 48hr once in a while would damage anything, but also question the real benefits of them anymore. For me, it’s just a way to guarantee a binge once I do eat and undoing it all. Never been a fan of that “fast then feast” thing, the word play of don’t eat enough followed by eating too much never fooled me. To me, that’s going to the gym for 2hrs, burning 600 cals doing cardio, then eating an extra meal “because you earned it”, and undoing the whole thing.

Not a fan myself, but I would say (IF) you could actually pull off eating the correct days amount of food in that window from a metabolic standpoint you would probably be fine, but again, the real benefits? IMO, if you eat a days worth of food in 1-4hrs, probably dinner, there’s ZERO chance your body is dealing with all that before bed, I don’t care how fast your metabolism is. So now you’re going to bed loaded with food. Even if that doesn’t cause sleep issues for you, your body slows down and has a ton of work to do at night while we sleep. You are going to wake up with at least half a days worth of crap still being processed, so is it done by after breakfast time? More near lunch I’d think would be more likely, so at that point… did you REALLY do 23:1 or 20:4? What you did do was lose meals all day, then completely overload your digestive system.

To each their own, but I can’t get around the downsides of it. It’s not that I’m anti fasting really, I just think the benefits are WAY overhyped.


#22

Indeed. Here both lean and fatty pork is quite cheap now, at least certain cuts but all (but the most fancy little things) are pretty okay, WAY below any kind of beef.
Before the artificial price cap on the fesh ham/butts (now I am pretty sure that the thing called “thigh” is for both), fatty pork was a bit cheaper, usually but it’s not so simple.
Fowl breast (and turkey thigh) is another thing, that’s the priciest part. There were times when chicken breast on sale was 4 times as expensive as leg on sale. Whole chicken always was quite cheap so if one and family members including cats eat the whole thing, breast was cheaper buying the whole bird… The breast is such a huge part!
(But if you don’t want the tasteless normal chicken but something better, the prices goes seriously up. Like, 3-4 times as much. While good farm beef has the same price as any. Unless it’s young or a special breed.)


#23

Well, fasting is pretty safe as long as it’s not too excessive AS LONG AS one can eat enough. Don’t you had problems because you were starving? Meaning you didn’t eat enough.

I personally wouldn’t go over 3 days without eating exactly because of my metabolism (longer ones work for others, it’s up to them, I wouldn’t do that even if I could fast but I lost my fasting abilities along with higher-carb), eating enough is no concern in my case as I tend to eat too much, never too little. My body counts its calories and throws hissy fits if they are lacking. Fasting, as little as I can do, it vital to me if I ever want to lose fat.

But fasting isn’t for everyone for one reason or another, of course. Each to their own.


#24

It isn’t like for all of us.
My body requires bigger meals (at least for my first one). Even if I eat 4-5 times a day, the first one will end up being 1300-1500 kcal quite often (I don’t know if it’s small or not for you though. but with my small energy need, it’s quite significant. for fat-loss, I couldn’t even afford another proper sized one, just a snack sized one). With a small eating window, I avoid serious overeating. Serious frequent overeating isn’t healthy.
But eating once or twice is super convenient anyway. I hate myu 4-5 meals days with a burning passion. it’s eating all day, my already bad food addiction gets worse and I do nothing just eat, cook, think about food, eat, eat… Hate it. That’s for your question what 23/1 is good for.
I prefer my meals and home too, at piece. Some people don’t even HAVE time and opportunity to eat properly at their workplace. if their natural eating window and opportunity has a tiny subset, it’s good if they can pull it off eating only there… And autophagy. I want the benefits, whatever they are :smiley: I need every little help. But I would never force it.
A small eating window easily may be the ONLY option for someone. It makes perfect sense to me who had a 1600 kcal carni lunch a few days ago… And stayed hungry. I had a 2200 kcal elongated meal, it’s over my energy need. I had a not small dinner too, don’t worry but I wasn’t actually happy with that… OMAD could be one part of my safety net if I could pull it off. If I eat twice, it has about zero chance of fat-loss. Unless I focus on leaner meat and eggs only but that’s hard.
So there may be a list of reasons to do our best for a tiny eating window.
It never harmed my metabolism but I never ate too little so it’s quite logical. I am a natural IFer, the vast majority of my days is IF since more than a decade. I did it before I heard about IF.
I HATE force-feeding anyway so I am pretty sure some kind of fasting is the best option for people like me.

You say it’s an overload but 2000 kcal is such a little amount of food! My body loves getting that, actually (a bit less on carnivore. sometimes much less, that’s crazy). I had countless 2000 kcal meals with a bigger eating window, it’s what came to me naturally.
Well, I say being hungry over and over again, not being able to chill for a longer time, not being able to get satiated as the meals are so tiny, eating almost all day… THAT is what would be a burden for my body and mind alike.

If one has problems with dinner OMAD, they can do lunch or even breakfast ones, each to their own. It must be late lunch or early dinner for me as afternoon is my only natural eating time - and I get hungry in 12 hours after my meal (but perfect satiation loss happened after 8 too), no matter how much I managed to eat. I must be asleep then or else I WILL eat and since some time eating at 1am isn’t that great for multiple reasons. I sleep wonderfully with a full belly but it still have some slight disadvantages (like overeating, the usual. I take a misstep, I overeat fat. it’s hard and a tiny eating window is one of my greates allies).

No, we don’t all have the huge amount of extra body fat to pull that many calories from our reserves every day.
Anyway, 1000 kcal is very little, it’s harder to get all the essential nutrients with less food too… But normal human bodies hate barely getting food as far as I know…
(1000 kcal is a way too little meal, I would be so hungry afterwards most of the time! But this is me and it’s not about not suffering like hell but how the body reacts metabolism wise. I don’t know that but I wouldn’t risk 1000 kcal, sounds too risky and unnecessarily cruel to do it for mere quick fat-loss. But each to their own, my own SO quickly slimmed down by starvation himself but I still think he is a special one and most people couldn’t pull it off with that level of success. At least everyone says so and it has some logic in it… He is a life-long high-carber though but individual factors probably matter more than fat-adaptation anyway.)


(Marianne) #25

Wow, very interesting. In an attempt to lose these last pounds, I have switched to eating one meal a day. I suppose in spite of everything I’ve heard here, I succumbed to the CICO mentality. My preference is definitely to eat more than I am and I do get hungry during the day, but I do something instead and have been ignoring it. Although I can and have fasted, I am don’t like and and won’t do it. OMAD is as low as I’ll go.

If you returned to eating normally, why did you track? What were you tracking for? I just can’t seem to lose the remaining weight I want, in spite of clean eating. Maybe I need to incorporate walking or some kind of exercise besides occasional gardening.

I’m going to go eat something now because I am hungry!


(Marianne) #26

That’s what I thought, too.

Interesting to me, too, for the same reason. I guess like with a lot of the principles around keto, much of it seems counterintuitive. :pleading_face:


(Marianne) #27

What is that?


(Bob M) #28

Not all of us do that, though. In fact, my hunger goes DOWN when I fast for 36 hours. Planning a 36 hour fast tomorrow.

I think the danger lies in doing 36 or 48 hour fasts multiple times per week. For those, it’s way harder to make up the calories.

But I have DEXA scans showing lean mass increase and fat mass decrease WHILE fasting a ton.

I do think fasting too much is detrimental. But there is nothing – and I mean nothing – that can reduce insulin levels like fasting. My lowest recorded insulin levels were taken after fasting multiple days.

I also think you can’t activate hormones, such as HGH, without hitting > 24 hours of fasting, or at least not to the same extent. See this, for instance (GH = growth hormone):

You can’t get that level of growth hormone increase any other (natural) way.


#29

I was never starving, I was never hungry. Fasting was the only thing that killed my appetite, except it killed it because my RMR was slowing.


#30

So did mine, that was half the issue, made it too easy to sabotage myself.

We pulse GH every night when we sleep, on those studies showing ridiculous jumps in GH when fasting, I put those in the BS pile. Not sure if you’ve ever used HGH, but I do and have for years, and when your GH is up even a little…YOU KNOW IT!. I use 2IU’s a night for my normal anti-aging, and when I’m going for recomp I bump it to 4-5IU, usually split AM/PM, when your GH is up you hold extra water, have stiff joints, get carpel tunnel, have lethargy many times, tingles and numbness, it’s a very noticeable thing. That’s a pretty small amount that give that to many people, and it’s beyond rare to not have most of those happen. I’ve done a ton of week long fasts, never once did I even remotely get a hint of increased GH. I feel those claims are one of those looks good in a lab doesn’t happen much in real life type of things.

I’ve seen a lot of people say they’ve had huge GH bumps between fasting and sauna use, but I’ve yet to find one that has labs to back it up either showing HGH or IGF-1 levels.

I don’t doubt it, but why care? If you’re not currently trying to fix chronically high insulin, then it doesn’t matter. Insulin isn’t just about fat storage, it drives nutrients into cells, no food intake, nothing to do, so it’ll drop pretty low, but did that really do anything? I think constantly worrying about Inuslin is another OCD we pick up doing keto, if you’re not eating foods that keep it high all day, why worry about it? At this point for me at least, it’s no different than chasing ketones.

After almost a year of doing my TKD/CKD thing, it’s not moving, and that with regular stuff coming in that causes a very decent insulin response, the A1C is more important IMO


(Marianne) #31

What benefit do you get from taking it?


#32

I do a hybrid of both TKD and CKD, so I have carbs preworkout and sometimes some after, once or twice a week I’d do a carb refeed to get muscle glycogen back up for endurance in the gym. Aside from that, it’s pretty much normal Keto eating.

You should always have exercising of anytime as part of your arsenal, for both fat loss and health. I track everything now, prior to having my RMR measured I had no clue how bad I was off, I started tracking at that point, but was way overeating because every macro calculator had me eating around 2500-2800 cals (which should have been about right then) but my RMR measured out at 1700, so I dropped to 1500 and started losing again. I did that for a little bit then started reverse dieting to get my metabolic rate back up. My last RMR test had me at 3400 cals/day. Took about a year to fix it.

Definitely track everything, otherwise you’re trying to find your way out of a maze with your eyes closed. Also had to pull my fat intake way down, I won’t lose bodyfat if it’s much over 100g. Protein up, fat down, watch my cals, everything started going right.


#33

Interesting.

I’ve never had a skin problem…Ok, the odd zit, but not many, when I was as teenager(I was lucky).

Recently, my skin on my face- eyebrows sometimes, sometimes side of nose, forehead, crown of head, dry- causing me to scratch at times…
This all coincided with a few things, which I’ll touch on later.

I’ve looked into all possible causes:

From all forms of eczema (my no.1 suspect at the moment), e.g .
‘Atopic eczema causes the skin to become itchy, dry, cracked and sore .
Some people only have small patches of dry skin, but others may experience widespread inflamed skin all over the body. Inflamed skin can become red on lighter skin, and darker brown, purple or grey on darker skin.’ this sounds like my occasional flare up.
I just experience random episodes of this- usually on certain parts of my scalp, my forehead, and even my chin a few times.

Seborrheic dermatitus (a close no.2, but I’ve been treating with no effect, just in case. The pics don’t look how I occasionally flare up.)
That can be mistaken for eczema?

‘Ringworm is sometimes mistaken for forms of eczema and other skin conditions, like psoriasis . Unlike nummular eczema, the affected areas don’t vary in color, and the patches don’t burn and sometimes don’t even itch.’
Again, this doesn’t fit with my ‘flare ups,’ and besides, I’ve taken pro active action just incase.

‘Fleas. Dod allergies’,
I have good hygiene! That dog of mine has too, she is bathed regularly (in a professional establishment with treatments), and so are all bed clothes washed.
She’s regularly treated for all pests and has her injections, there are no evidence of fleas or head lice at all.
She’s happy and so am I apart from the usual stress that everyonre goes through.
Glad to get that out of the way!

I don’t know.
It’s not always there, then I’ll scratch a wee bit too hard at 1 point of my head and sometimes break skin. A friend said you are experienciencing stigmata, jokingly.

But joking aside, I think stress can cause you to, maybe, just saying…scratch away at that itch, that tingle even…which isn’t good but is understandable. Keep your fingernails short and clean if you are going to do that!
Me? A bit of hydrocortisone cream and wait to see my ‘whoever’. I have a dermatologist family friend who is moving at present, so may have to wait a decade to be seen.

It’s not bad, just a scratch or two, which I seem to do at night :thinking: ?
Wake up, sore scalp…jump in shower…apply tea tea tree medicated shampoo…wash body…rinse head…apply H&Should Coconut shampoo (don’t want to say brand) medicated anti dandruff shapoo, leave on & wash feet…rinse head…apply H&Should coconut conditioner…leave on as long as possible before shaving & going to work.

This only works a wee bit.

So. Back to my theories.

I think, for me it might be, recent work stress.

It also coincided with covid and isolation, stress.

It also coincided with my dieatry changes, stress.

It also coincided with me ‘supplementing me up’.

It also coincided with certain ‘other’ medical concerns; stress.

I speculate that the (mine) mind may be causing my physical health (eczema) to detiorate, at least in n=1 me. Will test by excluding everything else else apart froms stress…because that’s fkin impossible!

:smile:


#34

More energy, better recovery, more youthful skin and joints, body recomp. They call HGH the fountain of youth, it’s kinda close to it. The sides are temporary when you have the dose up, at my 2IU anti aging dose I don’t have that.


#35

Both Targeted Keto (carbs before workouts) and Cyclical keto (periodic carb refeeds). People usually do one or the other, I’ve combined them.


(Marianne) #36

So you mean RMR, macros and calories? Where did you get your RMR? Again, I know a lot of terms, but what is TKD and CKD? I’m probably eating too much fat, although I thought that was okay.


(Marianne) #37

Where do you get it?


#38

My doc…and sometimes some other places :shushing_face: Stuff from the doc is EXPENSIVE!


#39

RMR is resting metabolic rate, you need to go to a place that measures them, Docs have them, Universities do them for people, I use a private gym that lets non members measure RMR and get DEXA scans (probably to pay for them) for $150, can’t go wrong.

Your macros are Total Calories, Protein, Fat and Carbs.

TKD is Targeted Keto, CKD is cyclical keto.

Extra fuel is extra fuel, whether it’s fats or carbs, same end result. Eat more than your metabolism can deal with… and you gain.


#40

Not sure about that.