Carnivore claims about plant foods

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #262

I think it is beyond doubt that our primate ancestors were predominately herbivorous. The conjecture is that when the primates who evolved into our hominid ancestors came down from the trees they became omnivorous and received the benefit of the higher nutrient and energy density of meat which led to a big brain that in turn enabled more successful hunting.

So humans adapted to consume animals. And it was absolutely essential to become what we have become. Otherwise, we’d still be wandering around competing for bananas with our chimp cousins.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #263

I agree with you. I love meat, but tried meat-only for ten days. It totally did not agree with me.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #264

@G_Whistler. We’re all vegetarians, but most of us let animals do the grunt work. They concentrate the good stuff and process out the bad stuff so we don’t have to do it.

(Robert C) #265

Not so sure about this simplistic view. As our brains grew bigger we obviously (my opinion) saw the advantage of eating fruits and vegetables to fatten prior to the coming winter (vs. the dangers of hunting and killing now fast-animals-and-able animals with big teeth and claws). If you have ever seen an animal killed for your next meal - you would probably back down a bit but from this position.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #266

I have killed and butchered my meat many times. But you are correct, it is not a pleasant task and especially if you’ve raised and related to the animal since its birth. It is one I no longer engage in. I have also killed large and dangerous animals that could have done the same to me given the chance.

That said, given that primates, even our most close relatives the chimpanzees, are herbivores, although chimps have been documented eating meat occasionally, I would expect that our ancestors had no problem eating fruits and vegetables when available. Just as we can now. I think becoming meat eaters took a few thousand years/generations. But if our ancestors had not eaten meat/fat and lots of it their brains and ours would still be the same size as chimps and gorillas. And we’d still be in the trees.

One factor you seem to overlook is that human evolution has occurred during the Pleistocene, the 2.5 million years of which were mostly 10-30 C colder than average temperatures during the current Holocene interglacial minimum. If you want to experience first hand what most of the northern hemisphere land mass above 40 degrees latitude was like 95% of those 2.5 million years, visit Antarctica. For most of the last 100k+ years during which much of homo sapiens evolution has occurred, for humans living anywhere other than the equator and a much smaller sub-tropic zone than exists now, fattening up for the winter did not mean eating fruits and veggies.

(Karim Wassef) #267

I know exactly how my meat comes to me. I have seen them butchered and I am grateful that I can live from their bodies. Natives tribes understood that there is a cycle in life… it’s not cruelty. It doesn’t need to be cruel. We can be thankful.

(Omar) #268

We are as victums as the animals we eat.

Ask whoever running this universe. God or nature or what ever name we give him. If eating animals is unethical it is his fault.

(Rob Grantham) #269

Insulin is still rising along with glucagon. Just because insulin rises in tandem with glucagon this does not give us a free pass to unlimited protein. Amino acids activate igf1 and mtor.

As Rhonda Patrick puts it. It’s a balancing act between anabolic growth and longievity. Want to live longer? Restrict protein slightly restrict calories. Want to grow? Eat excess protein. My guess is that it could be wise to find a balance of the two

I’ve provided links to several studies to show that amino acid intake highly regulates growth pathways in the body and has a knock on effect in the body in terms of ageing and also implications for cancer.

This video with Rhonda Patrick and Peter attia describes the exact mechanism.

(Karim Wassef) #270

why this vilification of igf1 and mtor? they are essential mechanisms and they don’t inherently reduce longevity.

it’s easy to misinterpret the longevity studies where fasting or calorie deprivation is linked to a down-regulation of those mechanisms, but it is much more complicated than that.

I fast for weeks, then I OMAD and I eat meat… I activate AMPK and push my GKI to 0.2 and then I feast and I eat carnivore. I eat a lot of protein when I weight lift and actively trigger IGF1 and mToR.

So which is it? Am I extending my life or shortening it?

The difference between those rat studies is that I’m actively cycling my hormonal states. I’m avoiding CHRONIC states… chronic insulin, chronic IGF1, chronic mToR… the problem is the “chronic”.

(Karim Wassef) #271

That’s a good video… you’re still missing the point. chronic AMPK is also bad for longevity - it’s called starvation leading to death.

(G Whistler) #272

If that offends you then I would say you do take offence easily. This is a discussion, in a science-minded forum, if a claim is made then in no way should anyone find that offensive. It certainly isn’t intended as offence. We are talking about nutrition and health, I don’t think speculation rumour or supposition, however well intended, are enough. To suggest that you don’t work for me is to imply some bad behaviour on my part and I totally reject that. This is a civil discussion between willing and voluntary participants and it saddens me to have to point this out. But when you make a claim you are taking on a burden of proof.

(G Whistler) #273

And as has been illustrated by my showing evidence, basic google searches produce contradictory results. If you google nutrition content for any number of foods you will likely not find a consensus. They can’t all be right, obviously.

(G Whistler) #274

Can i ask why?

(Omar) #275

True but

And that is the hard work to figure out the quality of the research and the credibility of the research institute.

(Rob Grantham) #276

Which is why I said it’s a balance… or did you miss my point?

I never villified igf1i simply said that In excess itwould be out of balance.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #277

So? The metabolic milieu is still catabolic, and the tone is being set by glucagon, not insulin. I’ve watched Ron Rosedale’s videos, and I’m not convinced that his picture of mTOR activation is the whole story. But I’m not claiming that we need a lot of protein in our diet, merely that we don’t need to fear it.

It is very hard to eat too much protein, in any case. I seriously doubt most people can get to the point of overwhelming their uric acid cycle—it’s very hard to eat that much food. If Raubenheimer and Simpson are right about their protein-leverage hypothesis, then most people aren’t going to want protein past a certain point—they would have to force themselves to eat more.

But some people seem to need more protein in proportion to fat, while others need more fat in proportion to protein, and I don’t see the point of telling everyone to observe a hard limit. After all, our ancestors over the past 2,000,000 years seem to have done all right, and I seriously doubt that when feasting on mammoth or aurochs or whatever, they bothered to figure out their lean body mass and how many grams of protein they needed to eat in relation to it.

(Rob Grantham) #278

That was the whole point in what I was previously discussing the balance of energy systems of ampk vs mtor activation or anabolic/catabolic pathways.

I wasn’t saying protein is the devil merely that like with most things it’s better in moderation… what is moderation? Well studies point to the fact that protein cannot be meabolised over 1.6g/kg/day therefore there is no advantage to this and high levels are not healthy.

I feel like I’m repeating myself a lot. Please listen to what I’ve been posting. I said there is a range to protein and that we should be eating it moderately. It has an upper limit.

(bulkbiker) #279

Hallelujah some sense finally…!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #280

I’m going to have to see a citation for that. I’ve never heard of such a limit.

(Rob Grantham) #281

I’ve posted metaanalyses on this very thread.