Carnivore claims about plant foods

#182

Yea, the trick as I understand it is you have to ask them to not cut the fat off the meat they are planning to butcher (at least some cuts, and if you’ll buy enough, they might be willing), which also means you’d have to ask them before they do it. Many cuts of beef really have a lot of fat on them that the butcher just cuts off and either throws away or turns into tallow or whatever it is they do with the excess.

I haven’t done this myself as there aren’t really butchers around here that I know and buying from the supermarket here hasn’t been an issue for me (but, then again, I have a grocery store that sells things like non-hydrogenated lard, fatback, salt pork, etc, which not everywhere seems to).

#183

Wow! Goat legs in a pot + in a warm climate - makes your mom a queenwitch then :crown:

Good medicine!

(Rob Grantham) #184

“Over 20 other studies have consistently failed to find any benefits of more than 1.6g/kg/d of protein.”

This online article details multiple studies which were used to determine optimal protein intakes for competitive bodybuilders. These people were training every day for a few hours at a time. If anyone would need more protein it’s them…

However in over 20 studies the scientists failed to find any positive effect of protein levels above 1.6g/kg. It did not lead to building of New lean mass.

This is in people who have a huge demand for cellular turnover so in the average human not lifting super heavy things on a daily basis would happen to the excess protein?

I believe that protein demand is needs based. If we don’t have lean mass in order to be sustained by these amino acids then they can be eaten in excess. This can be determined by nitrogen balance testing in order to determine your own personal ideal intake.

Based upon this data if I were a competetive athelete then i would be eating a humble 120g of protein a day with huge demands on my body and I could meet all of my body’s needs for amino acids. I would say that most people with lower requirements need far less than this.

#185

Are these studied individuals young? If so then their hormonal status would mean that they don’t require as much protein as older adults in order to maintain/build muscle mass.

Did they find any negatives?

This is not everyone’s goal anyway - some people use higher protein amounts for better satiety for example.

(Rob Grantham) #186

Protein intake is driven by demand. It’s doubtful that older peoples protein intake would significantly rise. We are talking a small percentage.

After reviewing additional evidence, [an international group of physicians and nutrition experts in 2013 recommended that healthy older adults consume 1 to 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight daily — a 25 to 50 percent increase over the RDA. (That’s 69 to 81 grams for a 150-pound woman, and 81 to 98 grams for a 180-pound man.) Its recommendations were subsequently embraced by the [European Society for Clinical Nutrition and Metabolism]
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208946/).

No that wasn’t the point of these studies. They are based upon sports science and don’t consider insulin signalling pathways,Mtor and amino acids effects upon cellular turnover. This research is also there. The point I was trying to make in this is that our maximum protein intake is actually far less than we presume.

Yes i agree that satiety is important… However several people on here have already mentioned that eating muscle meat they can just eat and eat. Not only could this be unnecessary but also detrimental. Possibly there is another mechanism driving satiety?

#187

There are several well-known & accomplished scientists who believe protein recommendations are too low - particularly for older individuals. There are others that disagree :woman_shrugging:

Maximum (as in ceiling amount for good health) & amount needed to achieve a particular goal are two different things.

I’m going to take a punt that this will vary from individual to individual :wink: I did my homework & my own experiments then landed on an amount of protein that works very well for me. May be too much for some but they need to figure that out for themselves.

(Karim Wassef) #188

The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for adults for protein is 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. Protein tissue accounts for 30% of whole-body protein turnover but that rate declines to 20% or less by age 70. The result of this phenomenon is that older adults require more protein/kilogram body weight than do younger adults. Recently, it has become clear that the requirement for exogenous protein is at least 1.0 gram/kilogram body weight. Adequate dietary intake of protein may be more difficult for older adults to obtain.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/for-older-adults-a-protein-rich-diet-is-important-for-health/2019/01/18/886926ce-1a78-11e9-88fe-f9f77a3bcb6c_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.07b5da3eb3f8

https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2015/02/13/older-adults-double-your-protein-intake-for-better-health

https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2014/Q1/elderly-women-may-benefit-from-higher-amounts-of-protein.html

(Rob Grantham) #189

This is still only recommending 1g/kg bodyweight. This is moderate.

(Karim Wassef) #190

The point is that we need more protein as we age. Also, the other articles recommend that it double ~ 1.5g/kg.

that’s a minimum but let’s play with it.

let’s take an example of a man who weighs 190lb ~ 86kg and need a minimum of 86g of protein… maybe 1.5x that so 130g…

let’s say that this person is also vegan and chooses to live a keto lifestyle … what construction of foods would work?

I’ve personally found few natural foods that meet my needs for this… pumpking seeds,tahini, and seaweed… I’ve started supplementing with pea protein… not a natural product.

(Rob Grantham) #191

Actually no there is an absolute and measurable amount of protein required by the human body. While I agree that this is individual it is not based upon “goals” rather the requirements of your body.

Yes for older individuals a slightly higher protein requirement is necessary. These top scientists have made recommendations of 1g/kg…

If we are eating protein in excess we are still raising insulin in the body. Insulin has been shown to have direct impact on hunger signalling. So all those tbones could infact be making some people hungrier

.

#192

Then that would be a minimum.

If your goal is to eat sufficient protein to maximise MPS & no more than that then you may wish to stick to the amounts suggested in your link. You will of course need to meet the minimum but whether any actual measurable harm will occur if you exceed that amount is a matter of some debate.

Have you watched the Bikman presentation on insulin & glucagon ratios?

#193

There is an absolute minimum of the 9 essential amino acids you need to survive (or you’ll die). Those amounts depend on your size, but there is such a thing as a requirement.

(Rob Grantham) #194

No 1.5g/kg is not a minimum its a recommended amount based upon the highest quartile for protein requirements ie. the sick and infirm.

(Rob Grantham) #195

Yes and as previously mentioned the minimum amount is determined by your nitrogen balance. The WHO have determined this at 0.8g/kg. This is 20% above the minimum of 99% of the population. We can only at this point hypothesise a maximum or even what happens when protein is in excess of bodyweight requirements. Some people have hypothesised that this can activate pathways which accelerate cellular aging.

(Rob Grantham) #196

Correct we know that we have a minimum requirement. the question is how much more do we require?

My goal is to provide my body with what it needs to ensure longevity and remain disease free. The evidence at the moment shows that this is not associated with higher protein intake

Yes ive watched it. Bikman also confirms that protein raises insulin along with glucagon

#197

We’ll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes ‘high’ protein & on what the evidence shows. As to post meal insulin rises - it’s perfectly healthy & normal. What’s not healthy & normal is chronic, excessive insulin.

I’m out.

(Rob Grantham) #198

What is excessive insulin release is exactly what we were discussing. Due to the fact that insulin impacts both IGF1 and Mtor in our bodies obviously it is optimal if we are able to achieve a balance.

whilst it is your personal choice to eat as much protein as you want anything over a moderate level would, therefore, be in excess of the bodies needs and considered high. As far as current literature is concerned there are risk factors associated with this. undisputedly the evidence shows that raised levels of IGF1 promote higher rates of cellular aging. Amino acids are the key contributing factor towards IGF1 levels in the human body. Its not only reduced calorie but also moderate protein levels in the body which lowers it. Look at the work of Dr. Walter Longo. There are multiple studies which also confirm this. IGF1 is needed for our body to grow anabolically. However, in excess it can also have negative repercussions.

well it was useful to discuss this anyway. thank you

(G Whistler) #199

Are you saying taht we don’t need vitamin c and e at all?

(mole person) #200

From the article:

The stuff that’s actually bad for you is nitrosamine. This is created in the body when those green vegetables react with our acidic gastric juices. However, those vegetables also contain anti-oxidants, which keep nitrosamine production in check.

It doesn’t say it ‘prevents anything from happening’ and I would be very surprised if there was any science that actually demonstrated that. Further, it’s not ever mentioned but meat also has some antioxidants, just less than vegetables. But it also has less nitrites than vegetables. I honestly believe this is just more SAD folklore and we have no idea which source of nitrites is actually more problematic.

However, I’m happy to see any science that actually addresses the comparison.

(G Whistler) #201

Sounds great, hopefully i’ll get the same thing. Been doing it since feb. Still feels really weird even though i’ve never been a huge fan of veg.