Carnivore claims about plant foods


(mole person) #205

Exactly. I think it’s all guesswork at this point. One thing that realizing the quicksand that our current nutritional guidelines are built has been to try to focuss on finding what’s actually got some stable underfooting.

It’s interesting, don’t you find, that no one ever mentions the antioxidants in meat as possibly offsetting it’s own nitrite load?

I think we have to keep in mind that we are facing a very strong meat is bad/vegetables are good bias and to be ultra vigilant of where the actual evidence lies, how much it’s actually telling us, and what the quality is.


(KCKO, KCFO) #206

I agree Erin.

I think the haplogroups can come into play on this issue. Mine is a newer one, only last 12,000 yrs or so, my ancestors were responsible for humans, settling into farming as a way of getting foods. I am fine with most plants, been vegetarian for years at a time, over my lifetime. I do enjoy my carnivore style meals often, but I also love my greens. I think our genes play a big part in all of this.


(Omar) #207

Do you mean the Y-dna?


(KCKO, KCFO) #208

Haplogroup is determined by the mtDNA, Omar. Women’s test do not give Y-DNA results.


(Karim Wassef) #209

My minimum is 0.7g / lb of lean mass but since I fast for 5 days, and weightlift, I’m looking for 1.5 g / lb of lean mass for those two days I do eat.

Please show me how real plant food can deliver 150g- 210g in an OMAD vegan meal.

No supplements. No powders. Just plants.

You don’t know what I need. I do. and I have done the research that you choose to ignore or assumes is necessary only for someone who is sick.

No need to argue what you think my diet needs to be. Just show the composition of plants that can deliver.


(Robert C) #210

It isn’t the nitrite load but instead (if you believe the article) the nitrosamine produced either by digestion or overcooking.

For overcooking, there seems to be several reasons to not overcook (watch video link below at 18:05). This video made me go the Sous Vide route much more often and now (due to this thread) I bake my bacon at 300 F and stop when lightly browned (about 20 minutes). I personally think that crispy bacon is a mistake and that ancestral man would not have left their pork in the fire long enough to let the fat all drip away.


Grilled/fried food and health
(Omar) #211

Sorry

I should have looked at the picture


(Karim Wassef) #212

The idea that high protein triggers mToR & growth hormones and is therefore a problem - just like insulin from carbs - is deeply flawed.

It is possible to consume so much protein that it triggers gluconeogenesis and that can drive chronic insulin… but the body’s insulin reaction to protein is to rebuild lean mass. As we age, the body needs more protein to rebuild and as we stress it, it again needs more protein. This is because there is a daily cycle of catabolism that strips dead tissue away and needs amino acids to rebuild. Age accelerates the catabolic activity. Resistance training also creates additional demand for amino acids to be anabolic.

The mToR response is real but it’s different depending on the context. If you fast 16 hours, you reduce insulin and trigger AMPK. When you eat protein, you create a low narrow spike of insulin and trigger mToR. That cycle of breaking down and rebuilding is what our bodies were designed to do.

The idea that eating protein once a day is driving insulin mToR to shorten our lives and potentially increase the chances of cancer ignores that cyclic hormonal behavior that is naturally protective.

Now, eating SAD and continuously consuming high levels of protein in excess- that’s different. Now you have no cycle - it’s just constant growth from carbs and protein. That’s what the research points to as longevity impacting and potentially increasing the risk of cancer.

The best evidence of this is Dr Bikman’s research where he shows that the effect of consuming protein has significantly different results on insulin and flu an depending on the hormonal state before consuming the protein. If you’re fasted, it upregulated glucagon. If you’re keto, it keeps them in balance, if you’re SAD, it upregulates insulin.

Understanding hormones is the key and using research on SAD consumers is meaningless.


(G Whistler) #213

GNG is demand driven though


(Karim Wassef) #214

We need a basic level of glucose no matter what we do. Without protein, the body will use lean mass for gluconeogenesis to maintain the minimum requirement. It can get this partly from the glycerol backbone in lipids when it releases the three fatty acids, but the more common source is amino acid metabolism.


(Karim Wassef) #215

gorillas need plants … we don’t …


(G Whistler) #216

Im still not clear on whether there’s any evidence or support for the claim that vitamins c,d,k, and other nutrients low on carnivore (which include calcium and manganese, and even folate - despite eating some liver - in my case).


#217

Sidenote on older adults (which means all of us, we’re either there or going there) protein reqs are also lifestyle related - way more nuanced than standardized protein intake prescriptions that ignore many key factors such as frequency of eating, frequency of fasting, weight bearing activity, spices used, and whether an elder is low carb or not. As we know, the body is magnificent and has mysterious ways of optimizing when various factors come into play, such as:

Degree/frequency of fasting - the fasted state reduces protein reqs for the sedentary, though elders who do strength training may have a higher req. Eating less is pretty common in elders due to a variety of reasons often related to ill health in this culture - but sometimes its from natural fasting and a well formulated LCHF/keto way of eating! Keto researcher Cristi Vlad in his book Periodic Fasting reports on the connection between fasting and time-restricted eating and longevity with good health in historic cases, including the self-experimenters Luigi Cornaro and Upton Sinclair.

Joy in life. Enjoying one’s food - joie de vivre - and living a little. Spices stimulate the brain, and eastern science holds that the 5 tastes (chinese) or 6 tastes (ayurveda) vastly enhance digestion & health. In ancient times, the use of spices was largely local and nowhere near as complex as it is for modern foodies. Also, certain spices with buttery veg can trigger positive memories (indian veg food does that w/ me every time, for example) that enrich life/digestion.

(But sadly in the SAD context, many adults have artificially stimulated/dumbed-down palates and/or palates affected by medications (the famous metallic stench tasted on the palate and smelled in bodily excretions). Often this “requires” high amounts of sugar, MSG, and fast food formulas to thus “enjoy” food. So by the elder years, there can often be very little taste enjoyment in any food. Without taste and gusto/digestive fire, it’s very hard to do anything but decline, as nourishment gets even dicier).

Happily in the non-SAD context, elders tend to be lucid till their last days, and also maintain gusto/digestive fire or take herbals specific to helping elder circulation (such as Ginger). Even with a bit o’ SAD as long as it’s limited to OMAD, esp when elders regularly consume adaptogens and rejuvenators which also include garlic, chillis, green tea, oolong tea, chai, etc.

Hoever, elder health in the SAD context nowadays is usually a state of illness - as those who are entering their 70s now have more SAD in their histories, and often are highly medicated just to cope. But with tasty LCHF/keto food, and/or strength training every 7-10 days (as shown by Doug McGuff’s reports on controlled studies w/ elders) there is such a thing as elder rejuvenation & healing. Good fats, nourished muscle mass, and joy in life can do great things.

What is tastiest and most nourishing & satiating varies among us - and in the elder years there are several paths to health using nutrient-dense foods, fasting, and/or strength training. So, I wouldn’t aim for generalized prescriptives on protein reqs without taking into consideration multifactorial realities :herb::fire::steakcake::sheep::muscle:


(G Whistler) #218

I’m stilnot seeing evidence that carniovre diets provide everything needed.


(bulkbiker) #219

Yep that’s human nutrition science… there are no certainties…


(Robert C) #220

I do not think there is a way to prove something like that.

Different people have different needs depending on their genetics, whether they spend time outdoors, their exercise regime and what they have been eating over the last few years.

If you really care about this - get quarterly or semi-annual full blood panels done - one before starting Carnivore (to see if you are already deficient in some things). You’ll see trends and if a trend is leading to a deficiency, you can deal with it. If all of the numbers get better - you’ll know why.

Carnivore is obviously very restrictive but, if I were you, I wouldn’t go Carnivore long-term just because some pro-Carnivore person on this site gave good arguments supporting the idea that it provides everything needed. Your genetics / ancestry and lifestyle might make Carnivore a very good option, a very bad option or might not make much of a difference at all (in which case, you’d be putting yourself through something very restrictive without benefit).


(Omar) #221

I think it was mentioned above the experement of Stafensson and his colleague.

I read about it

it is the most amazing experement.


(Robert C) #222

From the “Nature of Diet” section of the linked document – Stefansson and Anderson’s diet:

If someone is eating Carnivore including all of those parts (which looks like it is getting close to nose-to-tail) and eating animal meat produced from animals that were not raised by modern methods (Stefansson and Anderson did their experiment in the 1920’s) then one might be encouraged by the positive results they had.

But, if someone is just eating cheap (antibiotic filled, growth hormone filled unnaturally (grain) fed) meat – I do not think they can use the Stefansson and Anderson results to justify their way of eating. I think this kind of diet would be much better thought of as a short term elimination diet (which may be very beneficial).

http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf


#223

Prove to me plants provide anything essential I need that can’t be obtained from animals. Shifting the burden of proof back on you.


(Robert C) #224

Humans have adapted to be able to consume plants. That is a big and difficult evolutionary strategic move that probably should not be completely ignored.

Again, the issue of Carnivore being completely undefined is the issue.

Nose-to-tail might supply everything essential but, if your implementation is cheap Ribeye daily - unlikely everything essential is in there.