Carnivore claims about plant foods


(mole person) #22

You are absolutely right. We have no idea at all what the nutrient needs would be on a carnivore diet. All we know is that there are cultures that have done fine without plant foods in their diets and who have, in fact, been described as ultra robust and healthy and without many of the diseases that are prevalent in our own culture.

But that’s a far cry from knowing what a healthy carnivore diet is. Do you need organs, bone marrow? Does how you cook it matter? How much of it should be fat?

I think we’re all experimenting to some extent with our health. But in some of our cases, we weren’t at all healthy before. Something was hurting us that gets better when we ditch the plants. For many of us it’s an easy choice.

80% fewer days with pain and discomfort versus some question marks as to long term health. I’ll take that risk. Especially when that pain and discomfort is my body telling me something is wrong with what I’m consuming.

My solution is just to do my best. i think organ meats, connective tissues, and bone marrow are all probably important and will improve the nutrient profile over a daily ribeye or ground beef diet. My butchers think I’m a hilarious anomaly and they love giving me these parts fairly cheaply because nobody else ever wants them. I also try to lightly cook my meat. The rawer the better. And I do my best to keep my fat profile close to 80%. Finally, I think dairy is probably shitfor a lot of us. I haven’t done it yet, but I mean to find out if I’m one such. I suspect I am, sadly.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

(Todd Allen) #24

I think we ought to stop fussing about what is good or bad for others and find out what is good for ourselves.

Fasting doesn’t provide all needed nutrients but still many people find it is good for them at least when not taken to ridiculous extremes. Experiment with variations of diet from fasting to carnivore to vegan and find out what works for you. And realize what is best can change with time.

So try carnivore and if it works significantly better for you than what you were doing keep going. If/when not, try something else for a while.


(Karim Wassef) #25

I think plants can be good… like pharmaceuticals. But you have to know what you’re doing and know how it interacts with your biology and genetics. The chemicals we ingest don’t just effect our digestion and biochemistry, they even change our epigenetics… literally changing the expressions of our genomes.

But it’s important to know what you’re doing.

I personally think that extra virgin olive oil, apple cider vinegar, coconut cream, tumeric, garlic, beets, broccoli sprouts, cocoa, avocado, onions, hot peppers, limes, seaweed, and olives are all potentially beneficial (for me)… but that’s through a lot of experimentation.

I had to rule out lots of things I really liked - broccoli, tomatoes, brussel sprouts, peas, cabbage… Now I can only enjoy those if they’re fermented. My tongue likes them but my body just doesn’t metabolize them well…

There are cultures in the east (Indian food for example) who have spent a few thousand years learning how to use spices to augment and diffuse the damaging effects of plants where possible… I see western vegetable eating to be much less sophisticated… like walking into a drug store and just trying this and that…

So meat is just safer and better … unless you’re sophisticated enough to add plants that you know work for you … as pharmaceuticals.


(Erin Macfarland ) #26

I’m skeptical about the radical stance on this too in that community- it seems like the same over generations made about saturated fat and cholesterol being harmful…I think most people have pretty well evolved to eat a variety of foods and many of the claims I’ve read have been cherry picked or the context is ignored. So people should do what feels best for their body and stop making categorical recommendations for the entire human race :joy:


#27

India is pretty much the only place I could go vegetarian. Western vegetarians seem to have no idea what they’re doing with vegetables, don’t know how to prepare them in ways that aren’t centered around steaming, roasting, or grinding into a smoothie. And don’t get me started on Raw Vegans.


(Karim Wassef) #28

(Chris) #29

The famous vegan infiltrator…he even has Salad in his name…hahaha


(G Whistler) #30

Thanks, that article is an interesting start. But we don’t know just how much these antinutrients affect us and the article doesn’t say. For example, if the DRA for Mg is 350mg and we eat 500mg, losing 150mg to antinutrients isn’t really an issue.


(G Whistler) #31

I’m not sure I agree that liver and organ meat cover all bases. Could you cite some sources for that?

It is my understanding we need both forms of vitamin K, the former helps with blood clotting.

If brain is nutritious then I will never know. I don’t even think it’s healthy to eat. But since nowhere sells it it remains a moot point.

Eggs I avoid due to potential in causing constipation


#32

You can Google most of these answers yourself, just fyi.


(G Whistler) #33

Is that true? Can you cite a source?


#34

I’m calling sea lion at this point.


#35

Grains cause scurvy. In Norway, winter scurvy was a real problem until the potato came along. Potatoes has enough vitamin C to keep grain eaters healthy during winter. People who eat no grains don’t get the same problems, like reindeer herders or Inuits who live traditionally during winter. In summer, the plants one might eat would contain the necessary vitamins.

The potato is actually a superfood. Some Natives in South America had potato fields pretty much everywhere, with varieties of potatoes in all shapes and colors. They could survive for a rwally long time on those potatoes, as the right variety would give all the essential amino acids. Modern white potatoes aren’t that good, though, so only try if you have access to “real” potatoes.


(Karim Wassef) #36

http://www.comby.org/documents/documents_in_english/stefansson-diet-adventures.htm

Dietary glucose metabolically competes with vitamin C. This should be textbook biology.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16118484/

If you consume less glucose, you need less vitamin C. In fact, if you consume vitamin C, you can change the absorption of glucose.


#37

Plant foods certainly can be nutrient dense, and meat can as well. They can both also be fairly low in nutrient density. The thing is, different plants, different meats, different cuts, etc aren’t all identical.

The thing to also remember is nearly nothing is “nutrient dense” in all nutrients. Some things are incredibly dense in a certain set of nutrients, and very low in others, that a different food may be high in (while low in the others), and there are some that have a wide range of nutrients but not in particularly high levels of anything.

A lot of advisors around though do like to focus on a particular nutrient, and so will tout a particular food or type of food as nutrient dense without really giving the full picture. What is high in Vitamin B2 isn’t necessarily high in Vitamin A or Mg. What is high in Iron, isn’t necessarily high in DHA, etc. There are some rating systems out there even that exaggerate or diminish the value of particular nutrients for seemingly arbitrary reasons, so it’s not always easy to tell what actually is nutrient dense, and in what sense.

I do like Mat Lalonde’s approach on this matter and his calculations. You can find his lists of “groups” or “categories” of foods listed by average nutrient density and such, which typically puts Organ meets at the top, but the second spot goes to herbs/spices (a plant based food) and vegetables are up there, and some meats are lower than you’d expect. Regardless, he warns himself it’s not really appropriate to go for these numbers alone, since it doesn’t tell the whole picture, and depending on your goals and context, different nutrients are important, which is why his old site, and now optimal nutrition, provide sets of lists of nutrient dense foods (more particular than the categories) based on situations and needs, not just overall.

There is something to be said though for the concept that different contexts simply require different nutrients or nutrients in different amounts.

Take Vitamin C for example. It was long held you’d get scurvy without Vitamin C, but that was disproven nearly a century ago in the context of a very low carb diet / meat based diet. The reason wasn’t certain at the time, but the most credibly explination I’ve heard seems pretty straight forward: Vitamin C is for removing oxidants before they do damage to the body, which are produced largely from the break down and burning of carbohydrates in the body (more particular than that, I think, but I’m going with it). Without that process, or with that process significantly reduced, we simply don’t need as much Vitamin C, if at all. I believe Dr. Phinney used to talk about this as well, but mention if people were really scared of not getting enough Vit C they could take a suppliment to make them feel safer, but it didn’t matter much on a “Well Formulated Ketogenic Diet”. As we also know, outside of ketosis most people require a gram or so less sodium, and potentially other salts. In different contexts, different things are necessary, and in different amounts. This also makes comparisons of foods very difficult since what a person needs is not the same for everyone, and can depend on the foods they eat overall.

Dr. Fung has made some good points in the past though that, for the most part, there isn’t a major nutrient deficiency problem. There’s actually a nutrient abundance (at least of certain nutrients), and people are in the wrong mindset of supplementing or seeking extra nutrients when that’s not the problem they have (but, as he’ll always say, if they do have a deficiency in a particular nutrient, do something about that). I think that makes sense too, though can be weighed against the advice and evidence that satisfying certain nutrient needs is also more satiating.

Another thing to clear up: Plant sources do have K2, particularly fermented vegetables. Natto is known for having particularly high amounts of K2.

Vitamin D is an interesting one since you can also make that yourself with enough sun exposure (and possibly if you don’t use soap in the shower too often?). But, that’s not easy for everyone everywhere, so finding other sources can be valuable.


(Karim Wassef) #38

Fermented vegetables have technically been consumed and processed by another organism to make K2… bacteria, mushrooms, mold… all allies in the battle to detoxify, process and concentrate goodness from plants- just like animals do.

I love sauerkraut and kimchi… they’re not plants any more.

:smiley:


(Chris) #39

Get a flashlight and stick your head in my mouth.


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #40

Agree with Todd.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #41

Excessive amounts of oxalate are a problem. Spinach, chard, beet greens and rhubarb all have high oxalate which binds with calcium making it unavailable nutritionally and can cause kidney stones in people with lower renal function especially. They also bond with iron making it unusable by the body.

As much as I enjoy chard and spinach I keep them limited these days. I’m just fine without rhubarb! :cowboy_hat_face: