Carni and high numbers on my hs CR-P test

(Robin) #41

@Naghite @PaulL My husband will say he lost something when I quit drinking. He hoped I could just drink on weekend nights. Bwahaha!
Sorry dude.

(Sami Laaksonen) #42

Maybe too much meat especially red and cooked so too much uric acid developing and stress to kidneys? I developed i think swelling of kidneys which been quite painful now 6 months caused by too much overcoocked pork and red meat. So now im learning that u CANT eat as much u want meat. Keep protein quite low especially if its cooked and fat very high. Stephanie keto person @ youtube got tons of info about kidney problems and too high protein.

(Michael) #43

This is possible for people with pre-existing kidney disease. Unlikely for others, my GFR went from a low 55 to over 100 when I went carnivore and started eating much more protein . If you have pain, you should get a whole panel of blood tests, including kidney function. Why guess with your health?

(Sami Laaksonen) #44

I did got blood panel, my gfr was 110 and other test didnt show nothing. Believing blindly only test isnā€™t allways good. My grandpa liver and kidney test was ALL normal and his kidneys and liver was HEAVILY allready affected by cancer. I dont trust pharma.

(Robin) #45

@MeganNZ @Alecmcq @Naghite @Septimius @PaulL
Met with my doc today and he went over my nmr and my cr-p. His take on it is that yes my inflammation is elevated but not scary high. (His is much higher, lol.)
My last blood work confirmed my kidneys are doing great, plus I have no symptoms, no indication of cancer, also none of lupus. He believes auto-immune issues are like autismā€¦ there is a very wide spectrum. But I show no signs of it. He already looked at sed rate and other markers.

He is not that concerned although he wishes my ldl were lower. He said my ldl has too many small dense particles, but not in a huge majority.
He agreed that long covid is likely a factor and that older women tend to have higher ldls.
Soā€¦ I agreed (insert your groans and eye rolling here) to try a low dose of statin again, just to see how it affects me. If I still canā€™t tolerate them (a muscle cramps), he says he will happily let me stay the course, since I am otherwise extremely healthyā€¦
He suspects my back will feel better when I resume my rowing. Fingers crossed.

Either way, I am relieved and done worrying about it. Ready to drive on. Thanks for all your input and patience.

(Michael) #46

Sounds like good news, well except possibly the statin. Glad to hear it. Do you know how many small ldl you had out of how many ldl?

(Robin) #47

Iā€™d have to look at my notes. Iā€™ll be going over it all tomorrow.

(Alec) #48

I am 90% sure that statins are also anti-inflammatory drugs? What I have heard is that any benefit shown in statin trials is as a result of lowered inflammation rather than lower LDL. So, having a low dose statin does make sense if you want to calm down some inflammation.

Did you get any idea of where the inflammation is? Long Covidā€¦ heart/lungs?

(Robin) #49

It would take more specific tests to know for sure. Iā€™ve had EKGs and lung scans (I was a smoker 30 years ago, so was nice to see they look normal.) sonograms and scans of my joints show my inflammation is almost non existentā€¦. Especially compared to where I was at 70 pounds heavier.
My plan right now is to see how it goes with the low dose statin, then test all my levels again. Lipids and inflammation both.
If I can find a statin without side effects and is affordable, I may just concede. Weā€™ll see how I feel after a monthā€™s trial.

But I will rest easier tonight.

#51

Glad you found some solace. I am pretty certain that even in those who feel mostly recovered, if you had a bad bout of a viral illness, thereā€™s traces of the fight still within us for a while.

(Robin) #52

I agree.

(Alec) #53

Robin
I heard some very interesting concepts in a video from Dr Paul Mason that you might be interested in with regards to your CRP score.

In the video at about 1.10 (hours! Itā€™s a long video!) Dr Paul starts talking about basic carnivore foods and that can be inflammatory for some people, and he quotes some stats that suggest on average, 2 of them are inflammatory for all of us. From memory, the foods he mentioned were: fish, eggs, seafood, dairy (especially milk), coffee, nuts and seeds (I know not carnivore, but thatā€™s what he said). When I heard this, I immediately thought of you: I am wondering whether any of these might be the cause of the inflammation indicated by the CRP result?

BTW, this was a very interesting overall discussionā€¦ Dr Paul introduced some really interesting (new to me) ideas and research about carnivore and health. It is worth investing the time to listen.

Cheers
Alec

(Megan) #54

Excellent discussion @Alecmcq, thanks for putting the video up here!

(Bob M) #55

Did he give any studies? Because Iā€™ve been drinking raw milk for a while now, though I havenā€™t had a CRP test done. And Iā€™ve eaten everything he lists as being inflammatory, other than nuts (overeat them) and seeds, and my CRP in the past was low.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #56

Iā€™d say that if you are not experiencing inflammation from eating those foods, thereā€™s no reason to worry about eating them. Thereā€™s a lot of individual variation involved. Yes, we need to know the data, but we also need to know what works or doesnā€™t work for us.

(Robin) #57

Thanks, I am going to check it out, for sure. I drink decaf coffee, not sure if that makes a difference. And I have managed to cut my heavy cream intake in half. I rarely have eggs or cheese these days. Coffee with HWC, water, and meat is all I have.
Iā€™ll get re-checked in a few months and see where Iā€™m at. But I will watch this and take notesā€¦ appreciate you remembering me.

(Bob M) #58

But the problem is that everyone listening to this (and Iā€™ve not had a chance to listen, and wonā€™t unless itā€™s a podcast too) will think these are inflammatory for everyone.

And unless youā€™re one of those people who really react to something, eg, you eat something and can no longer get a ring off your finger, youā€™ll never know. You need a blood test, and CRP is only one marker (though I know there are others, I donā€™t know what they are).

And testing this would be REALLY tough. How does one go about testing that fish is inflammatory? Something like CRP, for instance, is a noisy marker. If you exercise, youā€™re affecting CRP. Youā€™d have to be very careful and set up a schedule with the same food and same exercise and same sleep, then compare that with substituting one food for another (to keep calories about the same). Otherwise, CRP could be different for reasons other than food. And ideally, youā€™d take multiple CRP tests during the run-in to see what the variability is. A tough test.

(Robin) #59

Paul, you know I agree with you. My only caveat is that the test shocked the heck outta me! I would have sworn I have zero inflammation. My arthritis has disappeared and I feel healthy and great.
I assumed inflammation is something I could see and feel.
In fact, I took that test to prove how healthy I was despite my lipids profile. Whoops! :thinking:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #60

Unfortunately, youā€™re right. But for me, the key is to go look at the data. The questions I have are (1) what is the absolute change in risk (not just the relative change), (2) how statistically significant is the effect (in physics, they donā€™t bother to pay attention unless p < 0.001), and (3) how clinically significant is the change (is 1.36 really important? Bradford-Hill said unless it was 2.0 or greater, it wasnā€™t worth getting out of bed for). Even if the observed effect is statistically robust, if the number needed to treat is really large, then why bother?

For example, Iā€™m just watching an interview Anthony Chaffee did with Paul Mason, and Mason is saying that perhaps Ļ‰-6 fatty acids arenā€™t as inflammatory as he used to think, because he isnā€™t impressed with the data, now that heā€™s really looked at the studies. His dislike of seed oils now, he says, comes from how easily they oxidise and from the phytosterol content, which messes with the body. He feels those data are more significant and more clinically relevant, and inflammation may be far less of an issue.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #61

Dr. Phinney mentions the following, most of which Iā€™ve never heard of:

WBC, TNF-Ī±, IL-1b, IL-6, IL-8, CCL-2, CCL-3, CCL-5, VCAM-1, ICAM-1, E-selectin, leptin, adiponectin, CRP, serum amyloid A, fibrinogen, NF-kB, STAT3, COX-2, 5-LOX, 12-LOX; also MCP-1, PAI-1, VEGF, EFG, P-selectin (he cites Forsythe et al., Lipids, 43(1):65-77, 2008.)

I only mention these to show that there are a lot more pieces to the puzzle than are commonly considered. And I think ferritin should be in there, too, shouldnā€™t it?

@robintemplin As Bob posted above, CRP is a noisy marker. And if thatā€™s the only one thatā€™s elevated and all the rest are excellent, then that says something. The big picture is more important than one or two markers that are off.