Carbs from fatty sources

(eat more) #1

just pondering…
how come we don’t treat the carbs in things like cheese and HWC the same way we treat the carbs in fibrous things?
fiber and fat both slow the absorption of carbohydrates so wouldn’t the 9g of fat negate the 1-2g of carb in an ounce of cream cream cheese?

(bulkbiker) #2

We do treat them the same don’t we?
I count them as part of my daily total and I try to correct people when they say HWC doesn’t contain carbs.
Have I been doing it wrong?

(Allie) #3

I count them too, always have done.

(matt ) #4

I count them the same.

But keep in mind that fiber does not “negate” carbs. Fiber is just carbs that we do not digest and absorb so some people do not count them.

Fat would not act like that. If cheese has 2 carbs you count 2 carbs no matter how much fat is in the cheese.

(eat more) #5

i think i should have been more clear :slight_smile: (i know what i mean in my brain and sometimes it doesn’t translate to my words LOL)

if someone is counting net carbs…
if fat and fiber both slow the absorption of carbohydrates (leading to less insulin)…

wouldn’t the fat in cheese or HWC negate/reduce the carbs listed in the same way that that fiber does in something like broccoli.

(matt ) #6

Fat will slow the absorption of carbs but you would still absorb all of them over time.

(bulkbiker) #7

I don’t think the fat negates the carbs… from my reading it causes the spike from the carbs to be lower but maybe extends its duration too. I read about Type 1 diabetics who have to adjust their insulin for fats when combined with carbs , the “pizza effect” which can cause an extension in the spike.

(eat more) #8

my understanding is that fat does act like that…it slows the absorption of a carbohydrate it is eaten with so if something is 10g fat and 1g of carb…that 1g of carb is probably not an issue? we just don’t have a mathematical formula like we do for fiber (that i know of) :joy:

Both fat and fibre, when eaten with carbohydrate tend to slow down the absorption of sugar and insulin spikes.

source:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/understanding-digestion-eat-carbohydrates-fat-fibre-vinegar-idm-3-2/

(matt ) #9

The fat would cause the carbs to be absorbed slower and also have less (but maybe longer) insulin response, but it would still be absorbed so you should count it. You body did process those carbs.

Fiber is not absorbed and that’s why its not counted by some. Those carbs just go right thru us and are not processed as carbs.

Maybe we are saying the same thing just in a different way.

#10

I think there is a confusion here with respect to “rate of transit through the gut” versus “cancellation” of carbs.

The components in a diet will change the rate of transit through the gut, which will affect how fast a satiety signal is triggered, or rate at which food can be broken down into smaller molecules.

This is not the same as negating a fibrous carbs from total carbs, as there is a difference of where their digestion takes place. For example, inulin doesn’t break down in the early stages of digestion. It gets “eaten” by the microbes in the large intestine (which is why inulin is considered a prebiotic). So, since it is food for the gut microbiome, and not the human digestion (i.e. for example like breakdown from attack by stomach juices or gall bladder bile), it is not considered as part of the net carbs count.

I hope some of this helps with explaining differences in how carb count is looked at.

#11

I think you have doubled down with the carbs and that is what is causing confusion. You are treating fibre as a different macronutrient like fat. It isn’t. It’s a carbohydrate. Your body will take in nutrients and split them up and break them down in different ways and at different speeds but fibre and sugars come in in one package - carbohydrates. Yes, most foods are a combination of all the macronutrients in various ratios but you have different levels.

Macronutrients - carbs, proteins and fats
Carbs - different types of sugars. Some are simple, some are complex. Some are used for storage and others are structural which impacts how easily we digest them.

Then you thrown n=1 into the mix which is why some people opt for total and others use net.

(eat more) #12

i am not communicating my thoughts clearly. :neutral_face:
my pondering is solely based on:

[quote]Both fat and fibre, when eaten with carbohydrate tend to slow down the absorption of sugar and insulin spikes.
[/quote]
if you eat something with 10g of fat and 1g of carb…it isn’t likely that insulin production will occur

i posted to discuss…i’m not confused or trying to get out of counting carbs :joy:
i realize what i am suggesting isn’t part of “the standard guidelines” but i thought it was worth talking/thinking about :disappointed:

only in excess or in the presence of insulin?

#13

@mikki,

You are correct in that the insulinogenic effect is reduced. So, if you eat a snack with 10 grams of fat with 1 gram of carbs versus 10 grams of protein with 1 gram of carbs, the protein-rich snack (the second option) will have a higher degree of provoking insulin response.

Unfortunately, just like calorie counting, how the body will treat it exactly is a bit of an unknown. This is the same reason why some people can eat artificial sweeteners, while others (like me) get an insulinogenic response regardless which type of sweetener we eat.

So, a mathematical formula would have to be customized to a specific person, on a specific time of day, at a specific point in their metabolic derangement journey…i.e. it is a moving target.

Since a meal typically has a variety of proteins, fats and carbs…that mathematical formula would be crazy complicated.

(Dustin Cade) #14

this is interesting, if it were possible to obtain real time read outs on the foods we eat, get the data of how each things going in is processed and how the body reacts that would really allow us to dial in how we eat to optimize our health even farther than just the standard keto diet…

#15

yeah…this is partial reason why Dr Attia has implanted himself with continuous blood glucose reading device…getting a closer to “real time” read on your metrics gives a better picture of what’s going on with your body.

#16

Sorry I am confusing you further here. When I mentioned storage, I was talking about the form of carbohydrate. So carbohydrates are either sugars (based on three simple sugars - glucose, fructose and galactose) or polysaccharides (more complex forms). The latter are used in plants as structure or storage. It is the storage types that are less easily digested and discounted by some people when they use net carb rather than total. Over simplification but you get my drift?

So - in theory at least - there is a proportion of a given carbohydrate that you will absorb and a portion that will simply pass through. Because your body has to work harder to access the good stuff if there is tedious fibrous material in the way, it will slow digestion down. The amount that is going to be absorbed will be the same, just how long it takes to get there will vary. This is why juicing is worse than eating the whole food because it will spike rather than release slowly. However, you could also argue that the slow release is just as bad because it happens over a longer period.

And you are right that digesting other nutrients at the same time will impact transit time. I personally think that whatever you put in is going to require the same amount of insulin to deal with it whether you chuck a load of fat at it at the same time or not. I don’t think you can change the end result, merely tweak how it gets there a bit. I am in the frustrating middle ground of learning the bio chemistry so gaining a much better understanding but not being all the way there so still relying on my own logic. Consequently I am not sure whether I have helped clear your head or make it muddier. I tried! x

(eat more) #17

thanks for all of the replies…

i honestly am not confused it was just a random thought i had :joy:
“hey…if fat isn’t insulinogenic and fat also slows absorption of carbohydrates and doesn’t cause insulin production are trace carbs from fatty sources really an issue?”

not a “meal” i mean like HWC/coconut oil in coffee, a piece of cheese, low protein fat bombs, etc

#18

Well “trace” wouldn’t be no, depending on your definition of trace and how many of them you had in a day. Fat is the least insulinogenic but anything you eat will cause an insulin response of some kind.

(James storie) #19

This is interesting, I had a venti Caffè latte today with heavy cream, about 2 cups worth of cream! That’s about 14 grams of carbohydrate in one shot, all fat based. It would be nice to know what effect that has on the general ketonian!

(Mike Glasbrener) #20

I really like Attia! He’s the king of the n=1 in the field of body responses to diet and exercise. He’s a darn fine communicator also!