Carb loading timing for keto insomnia?

food
sleep
carbs

(Mick) #1

Hi so I am particularly prone to keto insomnia and and recently learnt that eating a lot of carbs with no fat as your final meal can be very beneficial for that as well as beneficial for adrenals and hormones in general which I think I had been neglecting also. I was also told by an elite athlete trainer at the biohacker summit in Helsinki that I was probably too deep into keto and needed to reign it in a bit being higher than 3.5mmol most of the time

Anyway I’m not sure if it’s best to eat my my soparific carbs just before going to bed or the usual 3 or 4 hours before going to bed. I ask because last night after 3 hours of insomnia I finally had a slightly carby midnight snack with zero fats and it sent me to deep sleep very effectively straight away. But if I’m eating a more substantial meal would that disrupt sleep if too close to bedtime?

I should mention that I am measuring and mindful of my electrolytes so they are in check.


(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #2

First of all let me say I’m not suggesting straight sugar before bed. That being said I have a history of sleep eating and along side of that I used to have to have sugar in order to fall asleep. I understand the science behind it (much better at the time :grin:). I remember reading eating a potato before bed would also help.

Fortunately I don’t have to do this anymore to sleep and I’ve been keto for over a year. Sleep hygiene, binural beats, temperature, clothing/no clothing, stress reduction in general and an understanding that sleep isn’t always on the same schedule that I am has helped tremendously.

So, again, not recommending carbs before bed but to answer your question: carby snack right before falling asleep is what worked. Good luck.


(Failed) #3

Why would carbs put you to sleep? That’s the question you need to answer.

In my opinion it’s because your blood sugar spiked and that made you sleepy. If that’s the cause, you’re sabotaging yourself if your goal is insulin sensitivity.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #4

Before KETO I’d have trouble going to sleep and woke up pretty much every night between 1-2am with cramping biceps, shoulders and thighs. I had to get up and move to stop it. Usually ended up washing dishes from dinner and having crackers or toast. Then I got sleepy and relaxed and went back to bed. After KETO all that cramping stopped, but I still had some restlessness at night.

Next I stopped eating more hours before sleep, my usual last meal is between 2-3pm. That helps me a lot. I take salt at any hint of a problem now if I get cramps. I still don’t have perfect sleep but it’s way better without carbs. I don’t eat enough of them to have an effect on me and wonder what amount you’re suggesting having before bed. This also will keep insulin high and prevent fat loss overnight while you sleep. You might get better sleep but what’s the cost really going to be metabolically? How many hours will that knock you out of ketosis, will you even be in ketosis if it’s part of a daily routine? Zero carb people claim better sleep mostly so I don’t believe it’s a necessary or desirable way to go loading on carbs as a sleeping pill. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Joey) #5

@micalith I’d recommend trying magnesium citrate to help you sleep, not gratuitous carbohydrate loading.

Feeding yourself into a “sleep coma” sounds like one of the more perverse ways I’ve heard for ending one’s state of awaked’ness.

A few more suggestions:

  • Make sure to turn off your LED/TV screens a few hours before bedtime.
  • Learn to mediate.
  • Read a book (the kind printed on paper) under soft lighting during the hour or so before you think it’s time for sleep.

But if you are really committed to engaging in perverse addictions - like a nightly fix of unhealthy carbs - why stop at minor league snacks? … Why not just score some serious barbiturates and get yourself straight onto the no-foolin’ addiction path? :wink: You’d probably sleep better :zzz:


(Windmill Tilter) #6

+1 for meditation. Google “Tara Brach Sleep Meditation”. She has a 6 minute version, a 12 minute version and an 18 minute guided meditation that helps you relax and fall asleep. It works like magic for me.

I’ve experienced keto insomnia, and it was unpleasant. I did 3 days of fasting followed by 2 days of feasting on a serial basis for 3 months. The first month was tricky not because I was hungry, but because on the second day, I would invariably get wired around dinner time. The body has a adrenal response to fasting to trigger lypolysis. After a month though it went away. In the interim, Tara Brach’s guided meditations were a life saver. Good luck!

I also don’t think carb loading is the answer. It may be that eating a large keto meal just before bed could get the job done. It might be worth experimenting for a couple days.

+100 for using soporific in your post btw. You don’t see that one every day! :grinning:


(Mick) #7

@DeeCs indeed, this is my concern. I know that carb loading is good for adrenals if you do it right. After HIIT I hear is best. Not sure what my personal limit might be for avoiding insulin spikes though. Maybe it’s time that I initiate my continuous glucose monitor experiment which I’ve been delaying to try to save money!

Yeah thanks all for responses. I’ve got my electolytes in check, and take Mg before bed. I’ve noticed that it keeps me under better. Meditation is OK. I don’t really have trouble getting to sleep. It’s rather that I’ll wake up in the night, either disturbed by a noise, or by needing to pee. I need to go 2 or 3 times every night when I’m in keto, which has made it difficult for getting back to sleep when I’m buzzing on fats. Hence my thinking to eat carbs and no fats for last meal.

@Don_Q I think I should avoid major keto meals late in the day. The fat just gets me too high. I’m just starting to try getting most of my fat for my breakfastish feed (11am-1pm), then making up for the carbs around 5-6pm, with minimal fat so that i don’t get too high.

Last night I slept properly, despite getting up to pee 3 times. Fell back to sleep very quickly after each pee interruption. That said, I had 40g of net carbs yesterday, and did an insane arduous 30k mountainbike ride through forests, carrying heavily laden bike. So was v tired anyway. BHB 3.5mmol just before bed and this morning, 4.4mmol!

OK so I think I’ll try having more carbs, but not too many in one go, and with the CGM to discover how much I can get away with in one sitting.

P.S. anyone get frequent peeing at night too? I’ve tried getting good amount of salt 1h before bed to ensure my kidneys aren’t dumping. I don’t get pee needs when I’m closer to 1mmol - solid 8 uninterrupted hours, which is better than what I had before keto.


(Susan) #8

I pee a lot always, day and night. I always have all my life; it got worse over time, having 5 kids, and I go lots still. I have to wake up every couple of hours throughout the night, but this has been a lifelong thing. I just go right back to sleep (almost always) afterwards so it is not a big deal to me.


(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #9

When I was SAD I would get up every 90 minutes to pee at night. Now, once or none. I figured it was my body using up glucose and trying for ketosis during the overnight fast, hence the diuresis.


(Joey) #10

The increased urination goes hand in hand with lower carbs. But as it’s getting in the way of your sleep, try cutting back on the hydration 3-5 hours before sleep time. I.e., don’t drink anything after dinner. Just make sure to stay well hydrated w/ electrolytes the rest of the day, beginning as soon as you wake up.

As for having a keto “buzz” upon waking up at night to pee, consider this a gift. Keep your nightstand filled with great books you’ve always wanted to read. Or some puzzles to solve. Or again, some meditation time.

Back in the 1700-1800s these mid-night sleep interruptions were highly prized and was the time of day (er, night) when many great works of literature were written by oil lamp. Enjoy the hidden pleasures.

Finally, if your urination is excessive - not just at night but throughout the day - you may have a bladder infection or (if you’re a guy) a prostate issue. Not trying to be alarmist, since what you’ve described is highly common, but at least something to stash away for consideration if this persists for many months without change.

Best wishes!


(Mick) #11

yeah, interestingly, I have been peeing twice per night for the last 3 or 4 years (also increased appetite, and binging, all standard insulin resistance behaviours), then the same on keto for the last 6 months, BUT, when I kind of dropped out of keto to ‘low carb’ for a week, I never needed to pee at night like before I’d started keto. Could be a good sign of some insulin sensitivity progress maybe


(Mick) #12

Haha, yes, I confess that when I’m buzzing in the night I tend to get quite allot done. Still though, sleep deprivation equals DNA damage and whole cascade of problems. When I don’t have the luxury of getting catchup naps, or lying in, it accumulates to the point where my memory stops working.

I’ve been pushing back my last fluid intake earlier and earlier, to the point of being uncomfortably dehydrated before bed. Still need to get up, though maybe 1 or 2 times less than when I’m drinking late like an eegit

My urination is only a night time thing, or when I actually drink too much fluids. No prostate worry there for now, touch wood.


(Joey) #13

Good to hear. No doubt you mean touch wood in the meta-physical sense.


(Prancing Pony) #14

At one stage I needed a teaspoon on honey before bed to get restful sleep. It kicked me out of ketosis so I combined it with a teaspoon of MCT oil and that stopped it.

For the past year, I have found reading a paper book under a red light gets me to sleep better than the honey so don’t have that problem anymore.

And if it is waking up in the night then I can recommend GABA before bed. I never needed it before keto but it helps now.


(Ken) #15

I’m skeptical of the advice about carb consumption before bed as a sleep aid. If you’re still at the point where carb intake makes you sleepy, that is a sign that your hormones are still deranged. If I eat carbs now, if anything, I feel an energy boost, not the “Carb Coma” of the Hyperinsulinemia of my past. Again, I’m very skeptical of the advice.


#16

Energy boost? Well it’s known carbs do that to many people.
They always enervate me (or do nothing if my body still can handle the amount and frequency).

This topic surprised me, I wouldn’t think about carbs to fall into sleep easier… But it’s a bad idea for me to eat in the evening/night to begin with. But eating may help with sleep (or may ruin it, it’s quite individual), I sleep well after a big meal (occasional afternoon nap) but carbs definitely aren’t needed. And carbs without fat? Definitely not. But we people are quite different. Still, it’s a bizarre idea to me, eating a very carby meal on keto, right before bed… There must be a better solution. Meditation, melatonin pills, meal without much carbs, anything but pure carbs.

Waking up during the night to pee sounds horrible (it would ruin my next day), I never had that on any diet. It’s super hard to wake me up in the first several hours of my sleep (that’s a problem, actually), need for pee (even if I felt the need before bed because I drank a ton of tea in the previous hour and didn’t go) has zero chance.
Many people need to pee at least once during the night, it’s quite normal and if one can go back to sleep, it’s not that bad though I am still glad I don’t have that problem.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #17

To me, “carb-loading” always sounds like “feeding my addiction,” because I am a sugar/carb addict. As a former pre-diabetic (or undiagnosed diabetic, if you prefer), I am wary of deliberately inducing a serum glucose and serum insulin spike. I find that on a ketogenic diet, I am generally good at falling asleep, especially if I stop eating when satisfied (because over-eating ramps up my metabolism and can leave me feeling hyperactive).

Yes, if I over-eat carbohydrate and wait out the sugar high, then the resulting crash can make me sleepy, but for all the reasons I just stated, for me it’s just not a good thing to do.


(Katie) #18

This does not answer your question, but it is also the case that caloric deficits keep people up at night as well (the theory is that the body naturally wants the person to get up to find and consume food). Is this possibly your issue?

I have learned that carbohydrates are better digested at night when we sleep. Ben Greenfield often talks about how he is in ketosis all day but then has healthy, whole-food carbohydrates for his dinner, often eating later around 8 or 9 PM. He is an athlete and extremely active individual with a robust and healthy metabolism. Your mileage may vary.