Carb cycling macros

#1

I’ve done a lot of research over the last week or so and have decided to try out carb cycling to see if it helps with my muscle gain endeavours. I have been strength training on a standard keto diet for months now and am not getting anywhere. Not only have I had minimal gains, I’m finding that my body takes a long time recover and I am usually starting my next workout with very sore muscles from the previous one, despite cooling down properly, having hot baths with salts, adequate rest and even pain killers! I’ve researched targeted keto also but I think carb cycling is the way to go, at least for a months trial is nothing else.

What I am struggling to find though is how to calculate my macros for my higher carb days. I wasn’t planning on going too overboard on the high carb days… maybe 100-150grams twice a week and remaining strictly under 25g on the low carb days. I also read that there should be moderate carb days but am wondering if these are really necessary? I train 4 days a week and also have a very active job and lifestyle so I’m sure I will get through whatever carbs I do eat pretty quickly.

Yesterday I spent some time on various online calculators to come up with an average of what my BMR, TDEE and also my body fat percentage is.
Results show that my BMR is roughly 1300, TDEE around 2000 and my average body fat was 20%

I am female 5’7”, weigh 54kg and would like to shed just a small amount of body fat but mostly gain strength and muscle. I’ve worked out that I need roughly 120g protein every day, and I know what to do on my very low carb days but am really struggling to find any info on how to calculate higher carb days… any help is appreciated! Especially if you have experience in carb cycling yourself I’d be very interested to hear your stories!
Also am I better to sticking to low GI carbs on the higher carb days? What sort of foods should I be looking for?

Also, do you have the high carb days on the actual days that I train hard, or the day before I train hard? I do 4 sessions a week, upper and lower body split. My rest days are Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sunday’s .

Thanks

(Vladaar Malane) #2

I found a moderator for Keto forums in Myfitnesspal that uses carb cycling as well. I can’t say I agree with it if you doing keto? It goes to that article I just posted Scientists on keto max effort where your going from burning fat to carbs back and forth.

I honestly don’t notice any loss of muscle at all in keto for last 2 years. I use gymnastics bodies body resistance training program which is pretty intense. No problems at all.

Now if your a professional athlete where .01 % muscle gain is vital maybe you would look into this. But average joe smoe I haven’t noticed a bit of loss, or fatigue from endurance.

However, I’m sure there are carb loaders here in the forums that might have insight. Maybe it works for them.

#3

There is a not-quite-keto eating style where people eat some more carbs before training, they use it up during it so they stay in ketosis most of the time.
I know nothing about muscle gain with carb cycling, I surely will try it without (I want more muscles but it’s not my highest priority at the moment)… I am jjust very sure that it’s individual. No way I could handle 100g net carbs well and there are many people who feel significantly better when they are lower. Some people have more energy when they eat more carbs and some people experience the opposite. Some people need eating before training and some need to be very well-fasted to have enough energy for a good workout. I would try eating many carbs if I did some very strenuous activity for long where my body just can’t get enough energy from bodyfat. And if I felt bad, I would probably accept muscle loss for short term or something but it’s pretty rare to have some extreme activity, I
never had it. For weightlifting with my baby weights, I don’t need that and as I would have been enervated on a carby diet, it’s a moot point if carbs would do good, I doubt that.
I just wanted to say it’s individual and many people do it differently, without those huge amounts of carbs you mentioned. Of course it’s useful to get information but you will need people with much higher knowledge for the science part.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #4

Muscle gain requires a bit of extra protein, particularly from food that contains branched-chain amino acids. I’m not sure how increasing carbohydrate intake builds muscle, though I’m familiar with its role in promoting fat gain. Carbohydrate contains no nitrogen, and nitrogen, which is found only in protein, is an essential part of muscle tissue.

#5

OK, so I’ve done TKD, CKD, Backloading you name it. I’ve had the best results with having my carbs a little higher all the time. Keeps the glycogen tanks full which makes a night and day difference in the gym and strength gains. I used to also believe that the carbs didn’t make a big difference in muscle gain, like everybody else that says that, it’s because I forget what it was like to lift with loaded glycogen tanks!

On my lifting days I typically have my carbs around 100-150g. Active recovery days ~60 or so, and if I take a “Real” rest day probably ~30g. Higher GI carbs are fine around your workouts, med-low ones at other times. You start noticing a difference in the gym very quickly… like first week! I’ve found that carb “loading” isn’t the best for me. For starters it makes me a little binge-ish and you burn them off too fast and then wind up going without them, vs having them trickle in all the time. Think foods like Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Sweet Potatoes, not too crazy fruits etc. Really depends on the workouts you’re doing. I basically eat according to each day, I no longer fit a perfect cookie cutter meal plan. I’m on Vaca this week and have been eating like crap daily, yesterday we got a ton of BBQ which is still around and were doing chicken for dinner, so 100% keto today, which will help balance what I’ve been doing. I’ve found not being drastic with my diet was the biggest contributor to gaining metabolic flexibility. My typically keto A1C was 4.6 I beleive, My last one (just did it) after about 3mo of consistently eating way more carbs (by keto standards) was 5.1, which is pretty damn good! My body no longer over-reacts to stuff. I eat it, it burns it, I move on. No more feeling sick, bloated, headaches, mental fog, none of that crap. Plus, the plates on the bar keep going up! Really gotta tune it to you. Just make sure when the carbs are up the fats are down and vice versa. The one thing that doesn’t change is that those two don’t play well together.

(Vladaar Malane) #6

Can’t talk from experience here, but are you sure the difference you notice isn’t just gluten giving you a sugary high? The brain craves sugar, so it might be fooling you on performance.

So, wanted to just add this.

Are foods like white rice, pasta and potatoes as unhealthy as added sugar?

About half of table sugar and high fructose corn syrup (on average) is glucose. White carbs (like potatoes, white flour, etc.) are made of chains of glucose molecules. White carbs are broken down in the body to glucose and are then stored as fat or burnt off during activity. Processing removes other nutrients and fibers in white carbs, which could speed up their digestion and absorption. While they don’t have the fructose that has raised its own health concerns, the short answer is that sugars and starches are not much different, other than that your body takes the additional step of breaking the chains of glucoses down for absorption.

It’s located at http://sugarscience.ucsf.edu/ask-the-sugarscientists.html

#7

Nope, no way to fake weight on the bar! We definitely have more muscle power and endurance with the carbs higher. I convinced myself for years that wasn’t true, and that the small amounts of glycogen we did have at strict keto levels were all it took, and that MPS happened the same as long as we had our protein in check but in reality it didn’t play out that way. I lifted long before keto so had a good reference of how I normally am. After a year or so it was definitely better, but within a week of adding more (good) carbs back in the results started showing themselves. No more early burnout, weights creeping up, recovery much faster etc. I don’t think anybody should go back to SAD even for performance, but there’s definitely a line that can be walked for those who want the benefits of higher carbs without the health side effects of constantly eating bad ones. By “normal” standards I’m still very much a LCHF eater, I think once you have most things in check that’s all it really takes to continue to live healthy. I can still flip the switch to 100% keto and feel fine, can still fast for the whole day if I want to without the hell of when that’s a new thing etc. I’ve now got the plus of burning fat efficiently, the performance of higher carbs, and maintained metabolic flexibility. For me, that’s the ultimate win.

(Vladaar Malane) #8

You maybe right what I was speaking of though was a adrenaline rush or sugary high plus the mind desiring carbs so bad it gives you pseudo results with or without.

Anyway, hard to figure out without scientific test studies.

(Bunny) #9

This has some interesting points that get specifically into your questions and issues:

(Vladaar Malane) #10

Yeah am thinking pasta for carb loading wasn’t a thing 200 years ago. Or at the start of Olympic games no pasta. Maybe some wheat but eincorn wheat is diff then modern hybrid wheats.

Any event I feel as strong as ever without carbs.

#11

I really like your approach, you seem to have really taken time to figure out what works for you and it’s paid off by the sound of it! I think I’ve become so afraid of consuming carbs now that it’s in my head they will destroy me if I start eating them again! I need to get over this and start experimenting with different levels and see where I get to. Thanks for your reply :slightly_smiling_face: