I am 53. I have now been fully keto for 1 year. In that time, I have dropped from 217 lbs to 172 lbs, and feel great. I also strength train at gym for about 60 minutes, 4-6 days per week, and during my routine I follow every set of weight lifting with 10 air squats, which helps keep my heart rate up, so that my average heart rate is 125-145 for the workout, and I end up burning around 500-600 calories per workout. That being said, my focus has shifted from losing to maintaining my weight, and swapping out excess fat with muscle. I estimate my body fat is now around 18%.
My issue is that I have a difficult time eating more than about 1300-1500 calories per day. I am just not hungry for more. My thinking is that if my TDEE is around 2500, and I burn 500/day at the gym, and only eat 1500/day, then I am running a 1500 cal/day deficit, which does not seem very safe, and certainly not a recipe for bulding muscle.
I never have really cared about tracking calories, and mainly focus on hittin my macros, which I usually do from a % basis, but never hit the grams target of the fat or protein.
Should I be concerned that I am at risk of losing muscle or having a mineral deiciency? I do get quite a bit of cramping in my feet, but otherwise, I feel great. Thought anyone?
How do you feel? Are you getting the results in the gym that you want? Don’t worry about the numbers but look at how what you’re doing is affecting you. If you’re eating protein and fat, you won’t lose muscle before you lose fat, so I wouldn’t worry about that.
Think of it this way. To continue losing fat, you have to be tapping into your fat stores. There’s no way you can exchange one for the other. Lifting weights will help you increase muscle mass, but other than increasing your calorie expenditure, it doesn’t target fat. So you have to find the balance for YOU. Eating enough to be satisfied and to fuel your workouts while at the same time, continuing to use some of your own fat stores so you get leaner.
And I can guarantee that no calculator can get you there more efficiently than you just looking in the mirror to gauge your results, going by how you feel each day (tired? hungry? energized?), and adjusting what you’re eating accordingly.
If you have been on a ketogenic diet for a year, then it makes sense to assume that your appetite is a reliable guide to what your body needs. On that basis, I wouldn’t worry too much.
A key to your question is probably your protein intake. How much protein are you getting? Simpson & Raubenheimer (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15836464) advanced what they call the protein leverage hypothesis, which posits a mechanism that drives individuals to consume a specific protein intake. By this hypothesis, a diet rich in protein will result in lower caloric intake, and a diet poor in protein, higher caloric intake. Is it possible that your protein intake is high enough to satisfy you at a lower calorie count? It’s a thought, anyway.
Carb 28g 7%
Fat 110g 64%
Pro 112g 29%
Calories - this day happened to be based on 1817, but lately, I have been struggling to get above 1500.
I shoot for 20 NET grams of carb, but I use MFP, which doesn’t track net grams, so based on what I eat regularly, I know that around 28 total grams is about 20 net grams. This would bring the % carb for the macro closer to my target of 3%.
Cindy, I am feeling great, and I am able to train pretty hard in the gym. I usually get in about 20 sets of 10 (200 reps) and 200 air squats in 60 minutes, and when I get to reps 8-10 on each set I am really tearing some muscle fiber and getting a lot out of the workout. The issue for me is that once I hit my target weight of 170, I stayed there for like 3 months. Then when I started lifting heavier weights and really working on the weight training, I now weigh in at between 172-176 consistently, and seem to feel like I have a bit extra fat around the belly than I did when I hit the target. I can’t really tell if the extra weight gain is muscle or fat. I don’t know, maybe I am just getting paranoid.
Wait, now I’m confused. You’re thinking you’re not getting enough calories and so you’ve gained some weight around the middle? Not to get into the CICO debate because I’m on the side that a calorie is a useless measurement (just using it here because you’ve used it) but…I’m confused.
Stop looking at the scale. It’s a liar. If you have extra “wiggle” around the middle, it’s not going to be muscle! Now, it could be that the underlying muscle as gotten firmer and more mass (and if you’re working your abdominals incorrectly, it’s possible to make them protrude more vs getting flatter), so you’re seeing the outer layer of padding more, but the keto concepts don’t change.
Keep your carbs low, eat to satiety. If you’re trying to lose fat, don’t eat an excessive amount of fat because your body burns what’s on the plate or what’s on your body.
The former 170 could have been just as much fat as the 172-176. Not that you’re necessarily gaining weight. But then, also, with lifting weights, you DO want to gain weight as muscle mass. So again…scales suck at telling you what’s going on.
I’d just give it time. As long as you’re feeling GOOD, what difference does 5 lbs make on the scale?
Thanks. I am probably just over analyzing it all. I am not sure about the CICO debate, but as far as calories, I do believe that weight loss associated with keto is due to a calorie deficit, and that there is no magic fat burning metobolic function associated with ketosis.
Based on everything I have researched, ketosis provides your body with an alternative source of energy to make up for the lack of glucose, and a biproduct of keto diet is that you feel more satiated on the higher good fats, so you end up eating less calories, and it is this caloric deficit that sheds the pounds. Where I get lost is knowing whether those lost pounds are fat, muscle, or some combination of both. I have not found ebough credible research that suggests that a person in ketosis who manages to consume zero caloric deficit will still lose body fat. That being said, I don’t focus on the calories, but they are part of the MFP tracking, and when I see that I am consitently only getting around 1500 per day, and burning 500/day in the gym, it made me ask the question of whether I am getting enough calories to actually build muscle. I have read a lot about how not eating enough calories can actually slow down your metabolsm and cause you to gain weight. That was my whole reaon for posting this.
I’m not touching this one with a 10 foot pole. Else we’ll be several hundred posts in this thread.
You do seem to be eating a small amount of calories (I often eat that much in one of my two meals per day). The only way to know what’s going on is getting some real tests done, such as a DEXA scan. You could also get a resting metabolic rate test done, but I’m not familiar enough with that one.
I understand that. But just as you think there’s no “magic fat burning metabolic function,” there’s no “we won’t build muscle because we’re missing 500 calories/day” switch either.
Dr Fung has shown that fasting does NOT cause muscle loss. So if 0 calories (when you’re fat-adapted and have extra fat to burn) doesn’t cause muscle wasting, exercising on a calorie deficit surely isn’t. From an evolutionary stand point, if we’re low on food, what makes more sense? That we get weaker and LESS able to hunt or that we get stronger and more mental clarity so we can catch the rabbit?
That’s CICO dogma talking. If you’re not hungry, you’re not going to slow your metabolism. If you feel like you need more protein because you want more muscle, eat more meat. If you’re hungry, eat more fat. Give your body time to adjust to the changes.
I know the wormhole the CICO stuff goes into. I just found my post about this from last summer - Ketosis & Calorie Deficit, and did not realize that there were so many posts on it. I did do a DEXA scan last June, when I weighed 187, and plan to have another one done very soon, so we will see. I was at 30% body fat then and have dropped another 15 pounds since, so we shall see. Thanks for your input.
Firstly, to gain muscle, what you need is amino acids—protein, in other words. It also helps to get extra of the essential branched-chain amino acids (leucine, valine, and iso-leucein), because they help muscle grow. You also need calories to fuel the process. Which brings me to secondly, there is a big difference between deliberately restricting calories and eating to satisfy your hunger, even if the calorie count turns out the same.
The former runs the risk of shorting the body on energy, whereas the latter ensures that your body is getting the energy it needs, because you are listening to it. If you eat to satiety, your caloric intake will fluctuate according to need, but your body will feel free to dispose of excess stored fat. Eating to a calorie target runs the risk of convincing the body to hold on to its fat until the famine is over. Or alternatively, you’ll end up choking down extra food just to hit the target. Eating to satiety is so much pleasanter!
The phrase “calories in, calories out” is not so off-base (in light of the First Law of Thermodynamics), but the problem is that it’s shorthand for the attitude that “a calorie is a calorie”—which is definitely untrue. Carbohydrate calories affect the body in a very different manner from how fat calories affect it, and the ketogenic diet is structured to take advantage of that fact.
The result is that manipulating a caloric deficit to try to lose weight usually backfires, whereas manipulating the types of calories consumed will yield the coveted result. Eating right puts the body in weight-loss mode, which causes the caloric deficit. This is causation running in the opposite direction to what is usually assumed.
I sip BCAA’s and Creatine HCL during and after every workout. I also do MCT powder in my coffee daily.
As far as restricting caloris, I eat to satiety, but what started this whole post is that even though I train pretty hard in the gym for muscle growth, I am finding that I end up consuming 1300-1500 calories/day, which based on what the calculators say my TDEE is, and what my apple watch says on calorie burn during exercise (I know the watch is likely not very accurate but it is at least a consistent measure), I am running a 1500 cal/day deficit, but am no onger losing pounds, I am actually gaining weight. The math doesn’t add up unless I am building muscle. My next DEXA will help fill in the blanks I suppose.
If you are eating at a deficit, then your body is getting the rest of the energy you need from its fat store. I suspect that the extra protein you are eating is satisfying you sooner than a lesser amount would. You are probably right and are building muscle. When you get that DEXA, it would be very interesting to see the results.
TLDR Version: You’re actual intuition and maths (2500-1500=1000) are more trustworthy than your keto-hunger-guide-spirit. Spend the $100 at your Dexa facility to get an RMR test done. You’ll sleep better and you may head off a metabolic problem that you already suspect you have.
Long Version:
You are not over-analyzing it. Your TDEE does sound like it should probably be about 2500kcal. Maybe more. Your claiming a calorie intake of 1,500kcal, and you sound like a guy who is precise about that sort of thing. That’s not normal. In fact that is worrisome. One solution to abnormal problems is to get hard data from medical testing. Another is to pray to your keto-hunger-guide-spirit.
CICO is not wrong; it’s just an oversimplification. There have been literally thousands of studies where CICO has performed admirably, and has demonstrated admirable predictive value. CICO is like newtonian physics; it makes total sense and has admirable predictive value until [spoiler]shit[/spoiler] gets weird in the great big universe. In dietary terms, things get weird when hormones are screwed up or out of balance. If you’ve got hypothyroidism or something else, using the generic RMR prediction equation and CICO will accomplish jack squat except weight gain. Keto can alleviate a great many metabolic problems (it’s been a miracle for me personally) but it doesn’t solve all of them. It may even create some… (Gasp!..Heresy!..Apostate!!!).
Here is a great case in point. This woman was a high-end trainer and keto coach. She was in phenomenal shape and spent hours in the gym 4-5 days a week. Then strangely, she started gaining weight. She ultimately gained 45lbs. She was following her hunger signals and kept trusting in keto but bad things were happening. She decided that even the keto fairies need a hand now and then and got her RMR (resting metabolic rate) tested. It had inexplicably crashed all the way down to 1100! Seriously, read the thread, it’s an amazing story and I hope it has a really happy ending because that woman deserves it after what she went through. Moral: professional keto coach stops trusting magic keto hunger-guide and discovers the wreckage of her metabolism via scientific testing.
Granted, her story is not your story, and it’s unlikely that you share her medical condition. What you do know is that you’re burning nearly 2500 calories, and eating 1500. You’re not losing weight you’re gaining it. That’s weird. Test weird things with science and get a explanation.
Forget the Dexa. Get an RMR test done. It’s $100 at pretty much every facility that offers a DEXA. Find out where your metabolism is right now. The scan will show your “predicted” RMR. Don’t assume it’s correct. Given your activity level, the appropriate RMR equation is the Mifflin St Jeor equation, because unlike the other’s it integrates activity level into the equation. Google Mifflin St Jeor calculator when you get home after the test and plug in your own stats to get a valid prediction of RMR. If it’s 40% below where it should be (like it currently seems), talk to your doctor so you can figure out what’s happening.
That’s my 2 cents. Best of luck. Get the test.
P.S. I’m not sure I believe in mystic hunger guides or magic keto fairies, but I do pray to them every night. Keto has completely changed my life and I’m incredibly grateful. I don’t know how it works or why it works but it really has worked for me. I just don’t believe it is miracle cure for all things, or that it can do harm. Good luck!
You’re thinking you’re not getting enough calories and so you’ve gained some weight around the middle? Not to get into the CICO debate because I’m on the side that a calorie is a useless measurement (just using it here because you’ve used it) but…I’m confused.