Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?


#510

I cannot read the whole thread of over 500 replies - I just want to say that I’m in ketosis all the time but I am not always losing weight or even staying even, I’m sometimes gaining weight and not just a little. I lose weight when I am in a caloric deficit and I gain weight when I am not. I’m in a caloric deficit when I’m backpacking and don’t want to carry 16 lbs of food on my back so I carry only 8 lbs and get about half of the calories as I’m burning. I count protein and calories on a spreadsheet and the actual weight of a bag of food that consists of simply dried meats, protein powder, high fat nuts (macadamia, brazil, pecans) and some kind of fat bomb in a peanut butter jar.

I actually eat fewer carbs when I’m home and gaining weight but I’m always in ketosis.

So . . . it is true for some of us that it takes a caloric deficit and actually REQUIRES it.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #511

@Hap Same for me. I have a caloric window about 300 calories wide. If I stay in the middle of that window I maintain. If I go below/above for 3-4 days in a row I lose/gain. All while eating the same keto macros.


#512

I believe that we run into trouble when it comes to describing what exercise actually does, since the simple CICO model is no longer enough. Exercise is seen as punishment for overeating: bad, bad human, shame on you, you ate too much so now you have to exercise for 2 hours until you puke - CICO. We all overestimate how many calories are actually burned in a work-out session and we don’t really burn enough to out-exercise a bad diet. Probably, since the insulin is always high, you can run and run but no lipolysis will happen. We need about 1500 kcal just to lie on the couch all day, exercising for an hour won’t really do much. BUT! Any exercise is a great complement to a healthy diet. I love exercising, it makes me feel better, and my body definitely works better because of it. Once you forget the old simple CICO model, you realize that exercise isn’t just a quick fix and punishment for stuffing your face the day before, it’s a complement, it all starts and ends with food. It’s much easier to eat 100kcal less than exercise 100 kcal off. I’m keeping this simple for explanation purposes :wink:

I am one of those that will gain weight if I eat more than I should, but I no longer use exercise as punishment. I exercise for me, to feel better, but I don’t see it as a fat/weight changer - that’s what food tweaking is for.


#513

Exactly! I think that when we look at exercise and fat loss (or exercise and everything else) we have to take off our CICO blinders. Also we need to move away from however we might have used/seen exercise in the past. The fact that so many of us have used exercise as some kind of punishment or way to burn x calories isn’t a reflection of the effectiveness of exercise but of a flawed approach on our part.

I’ve long been confused as to why there’s so much great thinking and insight on this forum when it comes to the hormonal effects of food but often when the subject of exercise is raised, the simplistic CICO model is used.


#514

I’m always amazed by how different we all are, but our stories are the same :slight_smile:


#515

I kept myself to write here things for a while but I can’t do that anymore. It became longer I intented and after that, I totally carried away. But I feel I said my thing now.

Some people believe in some silly simple CICO (okay, it works for someone like me who barely exercises normally and no hormonal changes affect weight changes, seemingly… But I still hate simple CICO, I need truth so the complicated, always working CICO with their slightly mysterious CI and totally mysterious CO. It’s impossible to calculate happenings in a real, complex body)…
Exercise is when I simply haven’t the foggiest about my TDEE. It’s fine, I just need a decent deficit and I have feedback if I eat wrong but I surely can’t have any idea how much I will lose. It’s good I’m not into such prophetic visions many dieters are…
Exercise can double our TDEE just fine (if we have a small BMR to begin with, at least), well not for the average busy lazy one but it can. For days, it can be 4-5 times as much for the extreme tough athletic ones who have probably no problem with their weights anyway :D. But 200 kcal for exercise is quite easy and it may mean the world for someone with a 1150 kcal BMR (they exist, some has lower numbers if some tricky health condition is involved. or maybe messed up metabolism is enough? a tiny inactive body surely doesn’t need much to begin with). Even gaining some muscle means a difference if one can’t eat little enough but a better body will be fine.
We obviously shouldn’t exercise just to eat a cake later every time or making up for some (possibly imagined) error in our eating. That sounds mentally unhealthy to me. But not everyone exercise like that.
And almost no exercise can make up eating a ton if one can eat like I can. I imagine 2 marathons a day would do (even if I just walk as I can’t run much) but no one can force me doing that. But 1 marathon or even a half and good eating? Great. No exercise and eating every day on the best woe I am able to do? I surely will eat too much to have any change to lose in average if my BMR is small already. So exercise is very important for me, even if it’s just a little walk every day (it’s tiny but something. slow loss instead of zero, it’s BIG to me).

Whatever insulin does, our body can’t make energy from nothing so if there’s a lack of energy, the body is forced to use their reserves (of course, it might mean eating unhealthily, unrealistically little so “eat less” can be a horrible advice). People lose fat eating pretty much sugar but little calories, it’s just a hard, usually very bad and often unrealistic way to do so so it brings a lot of problems but you hardly can eat 600 kcal candy a day and staying fat. Insulin isn’t always high anyway, even on a bad diet. I don’t think believing in the simplest CICO isn’t sillier than thinking one physically can’t lose fat on a high-carb diet (maybe some individuals get sick or die first but it’s not general) or ketosis causes fat-loss if one has some to lose. It isn’t true, calories still matter just our body works in a very complicated way sometimes and various factors affect fat-loss, I don’t even start to understand some crazy cases (sweeteners stops decent fat-loss? how? but many people experience it so it must be true. it still must be CICO but CI or CO or both must do something crazy without us having an idea about it. mostly CO as we can’t make much more energy from our usual food if we already absorbed the nutrients well enough before. And we can’t have a super low metabolism, we need some calories to function and activity needs energy too. It varies how much but we can be sure 500 kcal isn’t enough for a day let alone 100 but some people obviously believes such insanely low need inevitably happens if we just consciously lower our calorie intake until we reach that point. And we stay fat eating 100 kcal forever. Those people are who I don’t even try to argue with.)
Maybe the disagreement between not stupid or ignorant and at fat-loss, somewhat experienced people exists because their cases happen to match some simpler, conflicting explanation…? I can say multiple interesting things regarding my fat-loss myself. I am someone whose weight just doesn’t change, almost no matter what. But it’s empirical, not quite true, I can’t avoid the true, complicated CICO, after all. I just successfully stay at a calorie balance in average, despite my not insignificant but seemingly lacking efforts. There are drastic ways to make it impossible, I just don’t do them and my perfect method gets derailed. It’s even worse to others, I just need to eat less or exercise more, truly, I’m that simple. HOW to do that is the question I try to find the answer to since 9 years. Keto (the version I am able to do) is surely part of my answer but it’s not enough alone. That’s why I combine it with other “tricks” and hope I will stay on all wagons long enough. It’s entertaining, at least, I love experiments so I spice things up now and then. I probably need slightly longer fasts…


#516

Seems to be the case for me too.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #517

The person may not be eating too many total calories, just too many of the wrong type. My first question in such a case is always, What kind of weight are you gaining? Muscle mass? Bone density? Fat? And my second question is how they know which it is. Then, depending on the answer, my third question is often, How much carbohydrate are you eating? Plus I add a discussion of insulin resistance and its effect on our carbohydrate tolerance.

Low BMR is actually not a good thing in many cases, because it means that the body is not expending energy on such incidental processes as hair growth, the reproductive system, muscle growth, bone density, and so on, because it doesn’t have the reserves to deal with anything but basic survival. Exercise becomes impossible, and the person finds him- or herself continually hungry (to prompt an increase in energy intake) and lethargic (to save energy expenditure). The body conserves its precious fat reserve, saving it for emergencies. The body starts cutting muscle mass and bone density before depleting its fat reserves. Yes, the fat eventually does get consumed, but at a fairly late stage in the process of starvation. These are evolutionary adaptations developed over two million years of experience with alternating between famine and plenty.

It’s the low serum insulin resulting from a low-carbohydrate diet that permits fat to be mobilised and metabolised, insulin being the primary fat-storage hormone. To the extent that exercise consumes glucose and helps remove it from the bloodstream—thereby reducing the need for serum insulin—I’m sure it helps. Exercise also promotes mitochondrial healing, as long as we don’t keep damaging our mitochondria with high levels of serum glucose, and in that way helps promote metabolic health, which is necessary for proper fat metabolism. But the amount of energy expended by exercising is generally so small, compared with the caloric content of food, that exercise should not be regarded as a primary means of fat control. Check out one of those articles listing how much exercise is required to work off a bagel, a glazed doughnut, etc.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear to be going without saying, even on these forums, which is why some of us feel it necessary to keep saying it. The message of “eat less, move more” has been drummed into our ears for so long, that the habit of belief (as I call it) can persist long after we reach an intellectual understanding of how the body really works. Otherwise, “calories are important”/“no they’re not” threads wouldn’t keep cropping up regularly.

Actually, regardless of what people believe, the fat is present in a ketogenic diet in order to replace calories lost from cutting carbohydrate intake, and also because, once our need for protein is satisfied, fat is highly satiating in its own right. (Fat is also a safe source of calories, because its effect on insulin secretion is so minimal as to be negligible.) Raubenheimer and Simpson claim that people, like all mammals, have an instinct for how much protein they need, so protein intake is not a major focus of our advice on these forums—our recommendation of 1.0-1.5 g/kg LBM/day basically boils down to “eat a reasonable amount of protein,” and most newbies are already doing that.

From what I’ve learned, it appears that it is not protein that stimulates metabolism (since protein is primarily used for the body’s structural needs, being metabolised for energy only in extreme situations), but rather energy intake, which in a well-formulated ketogenic diet, is fat. The human body has mechanisms to regulate energy expenditure in accordance with intake, and is just as capable of ramping up the BMR in situations of abundance as it is of cutting the BMR in situations of scarcity. “Eating fat to lose fat,” is a catch phrase that Dr. Fung uses to move people from the low-fat, high-carb mindset into a healthier one, in which carbohydrate intake is greatly reduced, so that the resulting lower level of serum insulin can permit the mobilisation of fatty acids to be metabolised.

As I understand my reading, nitrogen balance is actually regulated by the uric acid cycle, in combination with the level of deaminated amino acids, which in a ketogenic situation is primarily the result of a serum insulin level low enough to permit the process of gluconeogenesis (by which amino acids are turned into the small amount of glucose that the body actually needs). Granted, there is a certain irreducible amount of deamination and nitrogen excretion occurring regardless of diet, which is why our need for protein is constant, regardless of the composition of our diet. Insulin inhibits the production of nitric oxide from the freed-up nitrogen, which is one of the reasons a high-carbohydrate diet often results in hypertension.

As for lipolysis—the breaking down of triglycerides into their component fatty acids and glycerol backbone—this can occur in adipose tissue only in the presence of low levels of serum insulin, as was demonstrated by Yalow and Berson in the last century. Insulin-like growth factor (IGF) has been shown to have a similar effect, and while I haven’t read anything about the effect of HGH on fat storage, I would expect it to inhibit lipolysis as well, or at best to have no effect on adipose at all.

Fatty-acid metabolism is also inhibited by elevated serum insulin, the idea being that the need to clear glucose from the body before it does damage takes priority, so glucose metabolism gets prioritised over fatty-acid metabolism, despite the advantages of fat-adaptation. Bikman has shown that adipose tissue can, in a low-insulin setting, “decouple” its metabolism of fatty acids from its actual need for energy, thus resulting in increased fatty acid metabolism and the wasting of excess stored energy (fat).

Taubes did the calculations, and assuming the estimate of 3500 (k)cals to a pound of fat is correct, an excess of 20 calories a day above energy expenditure, or a deficit of 20 calories below expenditure, will result in a net gain or loss of 20 lbs./decade. When left to its own devices (i.e., when we eat to satiety), the body does better than that, managing to match intake and expenditure almost exactly over any given eight-day period. I also find that, on those occasions when I eat past the point of satiation, my metabolism increases to compensate (I am sure that there’s a limit here, however). I don’t like to eat past satiety, because I then tend to find myself feeling extremely hot at night, and I really dislike soaking my pillows and bedsheets with perspiration.

It just goes to show how much power the standard governmental dietary advice has over our thinking. And besides, the CICO model isn’t entirely wrong; it’s just that it gets the arrow of causation wrong. As Gary Taubes points out, the reason we take in more (or less) energy than we should is because our hormones are in weight gain (or weight loss) mode, and this is controled by the composition of our food, not the quantity.

My favourite example is children during their pubertal growth spurt: sure, their energy intake is required to be greater than their expenditure, but that’s because their hormones are making them grow and causing them to eat more to fuel that growth. No sane person claims that eating our parents out of house and home is what causes our growth into adulthood, lol! As Taubes also points out, further evidence that the process is hormone-driven is seen by the fact that although boys and girls start out with similar body compositions, girls put on comparatively more fat, and boys put on comparatively more muscle. If hormones weren’t involved, all children would add weight in the same places, regardless of their sex.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #519

Thanks. I’ve done the experiment multiple times. In fact I’m in the wrap up phase of my most recent experiment where I consumed a bottle of ‘Orange Brandy’ over the course of a week and added 3 pounds. I’ve eaten below my window and lost the 3 pounds in about a week or 10 days. My hunger and satiety signals are not the same as others and measuring helps me stay on the beam.


#520

All this, and much more.There are many reasons that exercise can be such a powerful lever in fat loss.

And this ^ is not one of those reasons. Exercise is powerful not because of how many calories it burns, so for those few of you on this forum who are still completely stuck in a simplified understanding of CICO (I know Paul is not one of them), then the “exercise doesn’t help weight loss” may be true. For everyone else, please don’t ignore it as a tool for fat loss (and for all the reasons that we generally want fat loss - excellent health, looking and feeling great…).

I think that most of us would be hard-pressed to find someone over the age of 30 or 35 (certainly over the age of 40) with excellent body composition i.e. good fat/lean ratio who is sedentary. Is food timing and quality a more powerful tool? Yes, absolutely; but that doesn’t negate the role of exercise.


(Katie) #521

There seems to be a lot of people who really have an issue with binge eating…not just carbs.

Now we know from tests that sugar lights up the Same parts of the brain as cocaine. We also know that a substitute like erythritol does not. So, whatever causes the binge response…it is not likely the fact that it tastes sweet… it looks to me like a separate syndrome.

Breaking the sugar habit (carbs) took about a month. Binge eating does not seem to be in that same category.


(Susan) #522

For me, it is sugar. I have only ever binged in the past on sugar -candy-- or frozen icecream, pudding, etc. Stuff that is sugar (a tub of icing, a bag of candies, a box of candies, not chocolate, not cake, etc. CANDY).

We are all different, for sure, but when I ever binged in the past it was always on sugar. I don’t eat artificial sweeteners at all either. I will try to make Keto Icecream with some in the future, if I can get it to work out, but only for special occasions. I tried for my birthday and it didn’t work so I threw it out, but I will try for Christmas for my desert and fingers crossed it will work that time =).


#523

Yep, we are different. Just sugar probably almost always felt gross to me, especially in big amounts, I instinctively paired it with fat (except when I ate fruits) and if I really like the taste of some food, sugar has nothing to do with it, I easily eat a lot of it even if I use erythritol or if it’s not sweet… Sugar was the easiest thing to stop eating, I wonder why our bodies work so differently.

I can eat a lot using almost any food I like. But it’s way easier (and often feels wrong) with carbs as they can’t satiate me, not even with fat (baked goods were my weakness. especially some good bread and butter and radish/bell pepper. bliss, even after the 10th slice. I love desserts but I can’t eat very much of them - I can’t eat very little of them either except chocolate -, I need some proper salty food first). Protein is satiating and fat almost alone in big quantities won’t happen for multiple reasons, my eternal love towards my chocolate or not.
But my control is totally different on keto OMAD anyway. So I don’t need to worry about overeating too much. I still seem uncontrollable with my peanuts and chocolate but it’s about the intensity of my passion and my almost complete lack of resistance (not like I’m trying), not the amount. That’s tiny.
I have this passion for my eggs too, I like my food. I usually consider my meals extremely tasty, 10/10. Not better taste but something new and exciting or old and nostalgic can tempt me. Or juicy or crunchy or creamy, I love various things… Sugar has a progressively stronger negative effect but that can be still balanced out, that’s why I still like fruits to some extent.


#524

People often overestimate it, true but it can be the key for losing fat in some cases, even if we just consider the used up energy. Eating is still important, I never would use it to make up for a bagel :smiley: Though that’s very little exercise, sometimes I think people are even lazier than me (well, no, I am very lazy but feel the need for some exercise. I suffer in complete inactivity).
So no, I think about the case when one eats the same (just fine for maintenance when inactive) but gets moderately active instead of staying inactive. It makes all the difference and it actually works for some people who already eat well enough and exercise doesn’t make them hungry (or they accept it and their bodies are fine with that, it’s complicated but some people quickly lose fat without problems except being hungry a lot).

Eating past (basic, nice) satiation might end in consuming less calories in average in some cases (being very full satiates me very long and still feels nice) but if it results in consuming too many calories in average, my metabolism follows that. It’s quite obvious in my case as I have this to a great extent, I’ve read it’s not even rare, some people just have such genetics. Gaining fat is quite hard and very slow for me but there’s a limit, quite high but I could go beyond, for decades. Most probably don’t do it so they stay lean. It’s clearly not super quick metabolism all the time as my metabolism gets normal when I eat properly. So I have a wide maintenance range.
I can imagine everyone has this metabolism quickening to some extent, it’s quite logical knowing the human body, it has such things when resources are abundant or lacking and it has ways to change the speed of metabolism… But it must be insignificant in some cases as there are people whose gain and loss follows their calorie intake if nothing else changed. They eat a bit more and start to gain weight, eat a bit less and lose some, even following simple calculations. And there are those who doesn’t necessarily lose when they eat a bit less than their original energy need, of course (but they might easily gain). It’s so wonderfully diverse.


#525

It’s easy for me, Ive gotten so lean that I can simply grab ahold of my subcutaneous fat and feel the difference that 5 or 10 pounds makes on it. I can burn through 8 pounds of it in about 15 days while eating 2k calories a day backpacking and put it back on in almost the same amount of time eating 3k+ calories. I dont count calories when I’m not backpacking so I dont know how many i eat at home, I just know I eat a lot more at home. If I just got out of the house and stayed busy I would not eat half as much.

Also . . . backpacking I can go three days without pooping and when I do it’s generally very compact but it’s twice a day at home. I actually eat the same things at home and on the trail (meat, fat, cheese, heavy cream, and high fat nuts such as peanut butter and macadamia nuts) but at home I eat fat bombs made with pecans and coconut oil rather than peanut butter and at home it’s fresh meat rather than dried meats and fresh cream rather than powdered heavy cream.

I use to eat a lot of rib-eyes but recently switched to higher quality hamburger because I think it’s better to have more of the connective tissue that’s in ground chuck and round steak. I should probably just grind my own and freeze it but it takes time and live within walking distance of Costco :o)


(Justin Jordan) #526

That’s describing a broken satiety response. Literally. If you need to look at the food you’re eating to not overeat, then that’s something other than satiety.

And eyeballing food like that isn’t materially different than counting calories. It’s STILL portion control.

Which I am not against. I know for a fact I am perfectly capable of maintaining a 280 pounds body on literally just beef for, at least, months because I did it. Because whatever mechanism is supposed to work for satiety in me mostly doesn’t. I say mostly because I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve eaten a reasonable amount of food and got a sensation I think is probably what satiety is.

If I want to lose weight, I have to keep an eye on how much I’m eating, because I will otherwise eat until I essentially can’t.

The standard keto dogma of ‘eat to satiety’ bugs me because the number of people for whom satiety is at best a theoretical concept is a non trivial amount. Phinney (I think - I’m going from memory) pegged that number at about 20% of people.

If the instructions have a 1 in 5 chance of not working, they need at least a caveat of ‘probably’ in them.


(Susan) #527

My problem, (since being fat adapted) is that I very rarely feel hungry, so I usually have to make myself eat, or remind myself to eat. I get full after a few bites, always… haha.


#528

That’s a lot but I’m not surprised. And it’s only the people who doesn’t feel satiate properly.
It’s defintiely not a theoretical concept to me but what kind of satiety we are talking about? “Not hungry”, “nicely satiated”, “fully satiated”, “it’s over, no matter what” (okay, it’s obviously too much, I like to stop at the previous type but sometimes at hunger when I surely ate enough and I know satiation will arrive eventually)… Even the difference between the nicely and the fully satiated state may be 1000 kcal (I think about a single meal but it can’t happen at every meal, my body is a bit smarter than that), especially with wrong food choices or having the wrong number of meals. And even if I’m just fine after a meal, it’s a problem if I will be hungry a bit later and eat a big meal again. It’s not as simple as many people think because it works for them just finely.


(Scott) #529

My problem is I still have that clean your plate mentality that I always heard growing up. I have gotten better about not overloading the plate though. It was tough not compensating the blank space created by eliminating starches with veggies and such. A little blank space is good for me.


#530

I know that too, I was a great kid, always cleaning my plate. I DON’T waste food, at all, I eat it. It’s a sad day when I find a small tomato rotten or something but it happens super rarely. I make sure I eat my food before it spoils but food on a plate has its own special effect.
But it’s fine, I have a freezer, I don’t buy too much food, I watch my food that can spoil… And I mostly eat food that hardly spoils. So it works.
I don’t have the clearing the plate problem as I need much food (a single plate is never enough) and I prefer to use little bowls. Not so much since I mostly eat eggs but I used bowls for my vegetable dishes on low-carb and on high-carb. 6 bowls of soup or something, it was easy to stop at the right amount (“you will eat less if you use smaller plates”. I never believed that and I was right, that doesn’t help me). Now? I can put some food into the fridge if I leave something on my plate (it took, like, 5 years to reach that level…? it wasn’t a serious problem for me so it went slowly). I stop when I’m full enough. I don’t think it’s hard if one practices it and knows what is good for them. A bit overeating never harmed me though, I just ate less next time. But it’s better to stop when I had enough.