Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #185

@SomeGuy I used Wikipedia simply as an aggregator. Here are the refs:

…fructose is almost entirely metabolized in the liver in humans, where it is directed toward replenishment of liver glycogen and triglyceride synthesis.[1] pp. 258–277. Note: this is a ref to the book publisher, and I haven’t found an online version.

Under one percent of ingested fructose is directly converted to plasma triglyceride.[2]

29% - 54% of fructose is converted in liver to glucose, and about a quarter of fructose is converted to lactate [2] (ibid.).

15% - 18% is converted to glycogen.[3]

Glucose and lactate are then used normally as energy to fuel cells all over the body.[2]

In fact, ALL carbs do end up as glucose. But, you are correct, sir. Not all of sucrose ends up as glucose: <1% ends up as fatty acid to contribute to NAFLD, and <20% ends up as lactate, which is a breakdown product of glucose.

Source:
Hepatic Metabolism of Fructose. Outlined is the metabolism of a 20% fructose load as it passes through the liver. Fructose induces substrate-dependent phosphate depletion, thereby increasing uric acid. Fructose metabolism contributes to hypertension by inhibiting endothelial nitric oxide synthase and reducing nitric oxide (NO). Fructose also contributes to de novo lipogenesis (DNL), dyslipidemia, hepatic lipid droplet formation, and steatosis due to inadequate clearance of lipid produced during fructose metabolism. Fructose also contributes to muscle insulin resistance and activates mitogen-activated protein kinase/c-Jun N-terminal kinase (JNK-1), both of which are linked to hepatic insulin resistance. Hepatic insulin resistance promotes hyperinsulinemia and encourages metabolites to deposit into fat. Fructose increases forkhead box protein O1 (FOXO1), leading to gluconeogenesis and hyperglycemia and central nervous system (CNS) hyperinsulinemia. CNS hyperinsulinemia results in central leptin signaling upregulation and, in that way, stimulates continued energy intake. ACC, acetyl-CoA carboxylase; AMP, adenosine monophosphate; ApoB, apolipoprotein B; ChREBP, carbohydrate response element-binding protein; FFA, free fatty acid; Glut5, solute carrier family 2, facilitated glucose transporter member 5; Glut2, solute carrier family 2, facilitated glucose transporter member 2; Glut4, solute carrier family 2, facilitated glucose transporter member 4; LPL, lipoprotein lipase; PFK, phosphofructokinase; SREBP-1c, sterol regulatory element-binding protein 1c; VLDL, very-low-density lipoprotein.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #186

Previously I was using the app and recommended macros and deficit. I changed that a couple months ago.

I don’t really like to use it but tracking apps use calories as a total for the amount of fuel you consume. Increasing them means more fuel. I try to keep a 68-70% fat macro but I don’t set a daily amount for protein or fat now. I guess I read somewhere that you shouldn’t set a tracking app to deficit, but to maintenance instead. So I decided to try it and ate a bit more to meet that. And started loosing again. I think it will be easier without vegetables, because I could easily go over on low carb vegetables.

(Alex ) #187

From a relative neutral on CICO vs Carbs - this thread is absolutely impossible to read, there is so much conjecture and opinionated preaching within it.

We are all different, everyone has a specific path that works for them, try all the ways yourself, track the changes, be patient, be sensible and follow your own rules for success.

(Bunny) #188

Lean body mass (skeletal muscle) is going to weigh more than adipose fat, but if you have more visceral fat and the livers ability to make Choline is not sufficient and if not getting enough from the diet your metabolism will not be so good as you describe.

Problems you were having could also be related to not enough aerobic exercise along with the lifting that is why your BMR and RMR went to “garbage” as your saying.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #189

All right, one more time, for the sake of accuracy:

  • A sucrose molecule consists of a glucose molecule bonded to a fructose molecule. They are cleaved in the digestive tract.
  • The reaction that turns fructose into glucose is complicated and expensive, so the body never performs it, preferring instead to take advantage of reactions that yield a benefit.
  • Glucose is metabolised in every cell in the body; whereas fructose is metabolised only in the liver by the same pathway used to metabolise ethanol (though a minuscule percentage travels to the brain and affects the dopamine receptors in the nucleus accumbens).
  • If fructose and glucose actually were interconvertible, the liver would not need to handle fructose separately.
  • Saying that glucose and fructose can be broken down into the same or similar by-products does not imply that fructose gets turned into glucose at any point in the process. That would be like saying that burning coal turns coal into wood at some point before the ash and carbon dioxide are produced.
  • And finally, since fructose is a carbohydrate that never gets turned into glucose, it is inaccurate to say that ALL carbohydrate gets turned into glucose. QED.

Apologies for the correction. I only make a point of it, because accuracy is important.

(Simon Saunders) #190

Didn’t Phinney say on a podcast in the studies in the 90s he found the body adapted to a 30% defiant?

IF works for me well, and do does a mega PSMF style, i personally feel there are many roads, both are keto we all choose the road that works for us.

For fasting style rebecca had a good tracker for this- https://www.facebook.com/groups/MyLowCarbRoadFastingSupport/files/

(Joey) #191

@PaulL No apologies please … your clarifying accuracy is appreciated. In trying to find common ground and maintain civility I’d lost steam and gave up the chase.

I think the takeaway is this: Limiting our focus to 3 macronutrients (okay, 4 with alcohol) - and then assuming away essential distinctions between individual food sources within those categories - is not helpful to understanding how our complex metabolisms function and how different foods affect us.

(bulkbiker) #192

In fact Wikipedia has a dedicated set of anti low carb editors who seem quite happy to misrepresent anything to paint a black picture of keto/low carb.
They have also caused the removal of most of the pages concerning statin questioning.
Wikipedia unfortunately can no longer be trusted as an unbiased source of info (if it ever could).

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #193

I meant fructose here not sucrose. My typo.

@PaulL “And finally, since fructose is a carbohydrate that never gets turned into glucose…” So what is this:

29% - 54% of fructose is converted in liver to glucose, and about a quarter of fructose is converted to lactate [2]

5% - 18% is converted to glycogen.[3]

If I have misunderstood these two references, OK, I misunderstood. If along with alcohol, fructose is a ‘special’ carb that is processed differently, OK. Again then I misunderstood.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #194

By the way, my statement that the only difference between carbs is how long they take to become glucose is in the context of the ‘good’ carb vs ‘bad’ carb discussion. My point being that there is no such distinction and it’s useless to make it. I already knew that alcohol is metabolized separately. I also already encountered so time ago, but forgot, @PaulL explanation that fructose is processed similarly to alcohol and not like other carbs. So like @SomeGuy says: maybe it’s useful to refer to alcohol and fructose as a fourth ‘macro’ or at least a separate category.

Then I discovered these, and I’m sure I could discover more if I looked for them:

If I am misunderstanding these two papers, then I’d appreciate if someone would clear up my misunderstanding. They seem to confirm that fructose does indeed end up as glucose and/or glycogen. Is not glycogen simply the long-term storage form of glucose? I would like to be clear about this so I don’t mistakenly mislead others. Thanks.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #195

I learned this years ago, when I edited a page on a topic about which I know something, both from study and experience, and all my edits were reversed by another user with an agenda. It was at that point that I gave up on the whole idea of user-sourced reference works.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #196

[Emily Litella mode] Oh! Never mind . . . [/Emily Litella mode]

Cheers! :grin:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #197

Wikipedia, however, is an excellent source for references on a specific topic. It’s useful for that.

(Nay) #198

Is your name FMA reference? That’s first anime series i’ve actually been able to get into!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #199

@Nay108 No, I have watched that but I am a serious film buff and the name is from the Kubrick film Full Metal Jacket cause I’m crazy about that film, one of my favourites. Private Pyle’s struggle with carb addiction and the insanity that resulted!

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #200

To stop driving this topic further off course, I created this topic to discuss fructose metabolism:

(Wendy) #201

Okay I’ve read every response including my own :grin: and I think there is a lot that is still not understood totally by nutrition experts and Keto experts alike. I happened to watch this video and thought he did a nice job explaining what he believes happens with metabolism and our bodies. I’m sure we are all unique in how we eat and metabolize and that time may affect each of differently. I don’t know if a year from now I will still have to eat trying to not lose or I will find that I have to cut back on something. Who knows?

(Full Metal KETO AF) #202

Well I weighed 250 in 2015. I lost and regained doing calorie restriction. I started KETO and have lost 56 lbs. down to 149 lbs. now. So I am down 100 lbs too. I don’t question their weight loss or success, only restricting calories. My experiences with calorie restriction with or without KETO haven’t been good.

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Misty Foley) #203

I started my keto journey trying to hack keto to replace the things I used to eat. It make mealtime extra complicated and expensive and you are definately right about not being able to judge the satiety signals eating that way. Once I stopped trying to replicate my previous carby way way of eating with keto substitutions mealtime became so much simpler and cheaper without all the expensive sweeteners and ingredients. Also since I stopped doing that, i use much less sweeteners and want them less often as well. Meat and one or 2 veggies or a small salad does the trick and I am never snacky outside of my 16/8 window. You are right about it being about what you choose to eat. It is a good thing to not fall for the lure of prepackaged keto items. They usually are highly processed, contain questionable ingredients or both and make you more suseptible to “cheats”.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #204

@tankgirl :+1::+1: Real Food FTW! :+1::+1: