Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?

(bulkbiker) #165

Thats more like what I do now since I stopped the craziness! :grinning:

#166

Ya, if there’s ANYBODY that shouldn’t give advise it’s keto’rs that have done this way longer and lost more weight than most!

So when somebody counts calories to make sure they’re eating ENOUGH, which for many is MORE… is that also stupid and ignorant? Or is it only “stupid and ignorant” in one direction?

(bulkbiker) #167

There’s a big difference between counting and recording calories (which I do daily) and deliberately reducing them by designing a day’s food around them.
So I guess I count calories but don’t restrict what I eat because of them (and rarely have). Strangely when I was eating a caloric deficit kind of deliberately it co-incided with my 18 month weight loss stall… spoooky eh?

#168

Unfortunately it’s not always that simple, I lost a ton of weight eating to satiety while lifting for years and still stalled out and had major issues loosing. After having metabolic testing confirm that my metabolism was garbage I had to dial everything in to match my then trashed metabolism and start rebuilding, that took counting.

(Libby) #169

Counting is no fun. I like the “less than 20 carbs” idea because it matches how many digits I have. Of course, I have to take off my shoes.

(Joey) #170

Ha! good one!

Yeah, counting the 20’ish net carbs puts me in the “counting” mindset (and as a data geek, I enjoy tracking everything anyhow). But in the same way that “a calorie is NOT a calorie” it’s also the case that “a carb is NOT a carb.” There’s a big difference between whence they come.

So all this data only goes so far since I’m tracking the shadows cast by the real variables, and I can’t actually track the variables that are really driving things.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #171

There may be a big difference ‘whence the come’ but the only difference where they go is a couple of hours.

(Joey) #172

@amwassil For many broad classes of carbs, we would likely agree! Still, with respect to timing, that speed with which they “go” can produce a significant difference in their respective effects on the resultant blood insulin level and cycling. And it’s the insulin profile throughout the day/night that drives much (all?) of the outcomes most folks on keto are concerned about in the first place.

But with all props to you, I must beg to differ about the difference being merely a matter of timing. It’s my understanding that, while the glucose in sugar goes directly into the bloodstream, the fructose does not. Instead, it goes into the liver where it is converted into fat (and if one is not in a state of ketosis, that’s where it will likely stay).

To me, this suggests that the difference between one kind of carb and another is about a good bit more than timing, no? Different pathways, different metabolic uses, different outcomes on one’s health? And we haven’t yet touched on the (different) carbohydrates to be found in an enjoyable glass of wine :wink:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #173

All carbs become glucose. The state of insulin and related other factors determines the specific outcome of the glucose.

(Joey) #174

@amwassil Is this indeed true? I’m still in heavy learning mode, so I could be mistaken but I do not believe that all carbs necessarily become glucose.

Again, using fructose as an example… fructose cannot be directly absorbed into the bloodstream and often becomes fat not glucose. I would welcome the opportunity to be set straight if I’m misunderstanding how this works.

Some related science: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2682989/

(Jim Lynn) #175

Hi David et al.,
Thanks for introducing this subject as it links so nicely to my state of mind and feeling of helplessness toward patterning my eating so as to break plateaus and stalls, finally achieving my goal of another 15-20 lbs (shed 50 so far, but taken 2.5 years to do so). Taubes doesn’t help when he says (in Why we get fat and what to do a out it) “well maybe some people just can’t reach their goal for hormonal reasons”. This would be hard to accept and is why most of us keep looking for the better way.
I’ve long been puzzled at the Keto-LCHF over CICO comparison. I get that LCHF stalls insulin and makes energy storage in adipose less likely. And it should be that fat adaptation will reduce adipose density leading to weight loss. But what are the governors that insure this happens. Why do I stall on LCHF (after 18 months of following it). Why to I water fast for 5 days only to regain most of lost fluid weight but without noticeable fat loss.
I admit my ranting is a little skewed as I have lost 20-25 lbs in the last 5 months but when I spend 2-3 weeks in the same general area I get worried and depressed.
Right now I’m doing carnivore (65-70% fat)) and will try OMAD without cream in coffee. If I do this, I’m likely to only ingest 1800-2000 kcal, same as you (Why did you choose the “calorie counting” method of energy allotment to yourself if calorie counting and restriction are stupid. NOT a criticism, just a curiosity from a fellow traveler.) I maybe could eat more with a handful of macadamia nuts but I’m so fearful of the scales next morn.
My doc said fasting would lower my metabolism. Guess what! I had 3 MedGem RMR tests in a 6 week period and the more I fasted, the higher my RMR (1520, 1700 and 1780, last 2 were post multi-day water fasting days). So if I’m only eating 1800-2000 kcal per day, wouldn’t I be in a “calorie restriction” especially when my daily 60 minute Precor elliptical workout adds 900 kcal to my energy usage to the additional 400-500 kcal over RMR allotment for the rest of my rather sedentary lifestyle? (Never read where RMR reduction begins during calorie restriction, i.e., when energy ingestion is below RMR.)
Regrets for all the parentheticals and randomness of my post. If anyone makes sense of it and has suggestions I promise to appreciate. Thanks.

(Failed) #176

I’m “et al” not David, but here’s my n=1

This is my pattern of weight loss since I started in June. I did a 7 day water only fast from July 15 through July 20. Lost 15.5 lbs. since then, I’ve lost an additional 12 lbs, 4.5 of it in the last 4 days.

4 days ago, I started supplementing with Lugol’s iodine drops, a methylated super B-Complex pill, and stopped eating pickles. Could be any of these, a combination, or none of them. Time will tell.

I know I feel more ambitious (I’m a 70 yo disabled woman who’s been mostly couch-bound for several years). Today I’ve walked 668 steps so far and yesterday I did a bit of strength training on our home gym. That’s huge for me.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #177

One question to ask is how insulin-resistant you are. That is hard to measure directly, without expensive testing, but HbA1C and inflammatory markers (WBC, CRP, ferritin) give a good indication. Dr. Phinney gave the impression at Ketofest this year that inflammation is the cause of insulin-resistance, not the other way around.

Another indicator would be your level of serum β-hydroxybutyrate, since ketone production is inhibited by insulin. If you are over-producing insulin, you may need to cut your carbohydrate intake even further, and possibly eat more saturated and monounsaturated fat.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #178

From the study you quote:

In contrast to glucose, fructose is mainly removed by the liver after intestinal absorption into the bloodstream. Fructose in the liver is used to produce glucose, fatty acids, or lactate.

From here:

Unlike glucose, which is directly metabolized widely in the body, fructose is almost entirely metabolized in the liver in humans, where it is directed toward replenishment of liver glycogen and triglyceride synthesis. Under one percent of ingested fructose is directly converted to plasma triglyceride. 29% - 54% of fructose is converted in liver to glucose, and about a quarter of fructose is converted to lactate. 15% - 18% is converted to glycogen. Glucose and lactate are then used normally as energy to fuel cells all over the body.

So I’ll be generous and give you 1%. :slightly_smiling_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #179

AND, I will grant that different carbs have different glycemic indices. I don’t budge on eating carbs is unnecessary and should be kept to minimal and incidental amounts.

And, I will add that conversion of sucrose into fatty acids in the liver is the cause of fatty liver disease.

(Joey) #180

@amwassil

Sir, even when we agree you seem hard to please. :smile:

As I recall, the original statements you posted that gave me pause were as follows:

and

So now, upon further exchange, it seems we agree that (1) glucose and fructose (two carbs) do in fact go off into different places, and (2) they do not necessarily all wind up as glucose.

Nonetheless, I will gracefully accept your generous 1% score :wink:

But please, I beg you to refrain from relying upon Wikipedia as your scientific prooftext when making points about keto and related topics. For your amusement, here’s a sample of what Wikipedia has to say (as of right now) about low-carb eating:

"Low-carbohydrate diets are associated with increased mortality…

…the potential adverse effects of the diet are under-researched, particularly for more serious possible risks such as for bone health and cancer incidence…

…In the long term, effective weight maintenance depends on calorie restriction, not the ratio of macronutrients in a diet…

…It is not clear how low-carbohydrate dieting affects cardiovascular health; any benefit from HDL cholesterol might be offset by raised LDL cholesterol, which risks causing clogged arteries in the long term…

…Carbohydrate-restricted diets are no more effective than a conventional healthy diet in preventing the onset of type 2 diabetes…

…An extreme form of low-carbohydrate diet – the ketogenic diet – is established as a medical diet for treating epilepsy. Through celebrity endorsement it has become a popular weight-loss fad diet, but there is no evidence of any distinctive benefit for this purpose… "

My friend, since we’ve made such progress together, I propose we shake hands and move on!

#181

Wikipedia says those things “now” --until someone edits them. Once in a deposition the expert hired by the other side referenced wikipedia multiple times. I had good wireless access so I edited the pages on the fly just to make a point. Inserted references to my books. Added a sentence or two that were true but emphasizing the opposite POV. Had the lawyer who had hired me ask the expert to look up his source and read the entire paragraph into the record.

I also used to put insulting reference to St Lous style pizza in if I was ever bored. Man that is terrible pizza

(Joey) #182

@Fracmeister So true! … (hence my comment “as of right now”) Wikipedia provides many alternative facts, all of which are perishable. It’s often emblematic of how unreliable the internet can be for actionable information. And - at least as of right now - when it comes to offering the low down on low-carb eating, their coverage is pretty pathetic.

(Jim Lynn) #183

Thank you Dee. Great encouragement. I’ll bet on 1000 steps next week sometime. Thanks again.

(Jim Lynn) #184

Thanks Hunter,
Lots of good questions. Pretty sure I’m not Insulin Resistant. Recent HDL/trig was 60/60 = 1. HbA1C has been 5.0 for last several years. HsCRP was 2.6 and suspicious. I typically read .003 on ketone meter. Fasting insulin was 5.4 which I think is fairly low but not flagged anyway. I’m puzzled on the inflammation issue and will talk with doc. Just getting started on the “nocarb” carnivore path. Miss my Sriracha (which has too much sugar) and guacamole which has too much carb. Initial results are positive. Feeling more patient tonight. Will see tomorrow. Thanks again.