Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?


(Mame) #395

Ok. I think we are agreeing here. :slightly_smiling_face: It’s not just about physical hunger there is also mind stuff going on for a lot of people. and the technique that @Ilana_Rose mentions that I first heard of from Dr Cywes is useful for many, especially in an addiction model. At least that is how he uses it.

I would just gently add that I think there is room for a range of experience on the ketogenic diet. I have been very low carb/ketogenic for years. since 2002 I can overeat on a keto or low carb diet and I know I am not alone. I just think it’s a disservice to people to say ‘stop eating when you are full’ or ‘eat to satiety’ in a similar way to saying ‘you have to eat to a deficit to lose weight’ is a disservice. Humans and their experiences are not black and white. I think it’s more helpful to validate a range of experiences so that people can start from a place of inclusion and then go on to make the changes they need from there.

I realize the thought work is not really the point of this thread so I will hush up now.


(Jane) #396

:clap:


(Scott) #397

Yesterday for lunch I had some leftover ribs and chicken wings. I just threw all the leftovers in the lunch box to figure out later how much to eat. Two large ribs and three chicken wings later I realized the “clean your plate” mentality had taken over. I felt stuffed all afternoon and had a smaller portion for dinner. The result is the exact same weight as yesterday this morning.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #398

Okay, so how do we explain it, how do we advise a new KETO initiate? :cowboy_hat_face:


(Bunny) #399

I would say that it is more about what your eating and what’s in it?

The more fat we eat goes into the endogenous production of hormones, then you have various array of animal proteins and plant matter that provide exogenous hormones and fat soluble toxins etc.

So if your eating hormone (and who knows what else?) and toxic infused plants, animal proteins and fats your going to be storing this stuff in your fat cells and go into puberty much sooner then nature intended?

References:

[1] “…One culprit could be rising obesity rates. Researchers believe that puberty (at least for girls) may be triggered in part by the body building up sufficient reserves of fat tissue, signaling fitness for reproductive capabilities. Clinical pediatrician Robert Lustig of Benioff Children’s Hospital in San Francisco reports that obese girls have higher levels of the hormone leptin which in and of itself can lead to early puberty while setting off a domino effect of more weight gain and faster overall physical maturation. …” …More


(Bunny) #400

Maybe like this? You can be sedentary; pray and hope something happens or try to build muscle?

Even if the scale doesn’t budge you still have muscle volume to clean up the previous mess and not starve yourself to death trying to do it?


(Full Metal KETO AF) #401

@atomicspacebunny I’m in total agreement about the resistance training. However I was asking in the context of diet and how to know how much to eat, and what to tell someone new to KETO. Not everyone can jump right into training from the start for various reasons. Many are just capable of one step at a time and not jumping into a complete wholistic lifestyle reconstruction.

As a side, I started a personal experiment a week ago. I have checked my tracking last night and I have been eating at 300-500 kcal above projected maintenance levels all week. I had a temporary bump in weight last Friday from drinking Tequila at a BBQ. I went up about 4 lbs. But overall I have lost weight all week and am below that temporary bump now, and my weight a week ago by about 2 lbs.

:cowboy_hat_face:


(Mame) #402

Well I think if someone is new to Keto the easiest thing to suggest is ‘cut carbs’ or ‘avoid all carby food’ as much as possible…

However for some people maybe the easiest starting point is to stop snacking or gradually increase the time between dinner and break-fast…

clearly I am not a health educator :wink:


(Jane) #403

I think you need to advise like @cervyn suggests. Temper what you advise with the caveat that it doesn’t work for everyone. Because it doesn’t.

State what works for you and the majority of folks as a starting point. Bad habits such as binge-eating, years of yo-yo dieting, eating for comfort, drinking to numb the pain and post-menopausal hormones all affect how we lose weight and our satiety signal differently.

There is a difference between eating to a deficit naturally and being hungry all the time because you aren’t eating enough through deliberate portion control.


(Lisa) #404

I think general advice (potentially not applicable to absolutely everyone, but likely applicable to most people) could be:

  1. Eat the right foods. The right foods are natural, unprocessed foods very low in carbs, high in fat, moderate in protein, and that you personally can tolerate and enjoy.
  2. Eat until you are full. This may take some trial and error. If you feel stuffed to the point of nausea, you probably ate too much at your last meal. Try to eat more mindfully next time so that you feel satisfied but not uncomfortable.
  3. If you have eaten beyond satiety, chalk it up to a learning experience and don’t worry about it. When you give your body the right foods, it’s likely that you will naturally compensate for overeating by eating less later in the day or by waiting later to eat tomorrow.
  4. If you feel hungry, eat!* See #1.

(*ETA: Unless you’re fasting.)


(Jane) #405

I’ve know women who were small and thin and ate like birds (~1000 cal/day) and I’ve known tiny women who ate like field hands (~2000 cal/day). The latter obviously had a higher metabolism, but both were never hungry or felt deprived.

I’ve had a foot in both worlds - ate huge amounts before I had kids. Now I eat much less, not hungry and maintain a slightly higher weight. If I ate more I’d just gain weight but I’m not hungry so I don’t. I’m not sedentary so not sure what I could do to increase my metabolism so I could eat more w/o gaining… but since I’m not hungry I don’t see the point.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #406

I agree you raise an excellent point. If one restricts calories to some arbitrary number that results in chronic hunger, sooner or later metabolism will slow to adapt to the insufficient intake. Whereas if eating less does not cause incessant hunger metabolism is making up the short intake from internal storage.


#407

Agree wholeheartedly!


(PJ) #408

Naw. Because the primary issue with our food supply is that after a certain amount of damage in the body, it does all kinds of things that drive people to eat. It reduces satiation in at least a couple ways, it drives hunger in at least a few ways, it dispenses with food too harshly (resulted in low blood sugar) that then drives the body to need energy which drives not just eating but sugar/starch cravings and rapid/urgent-eating, some of the most primary cultural foods are addictive and have opioid and craving effects – in short, it’s not just the perfect storm, it’s a Cat 4 sucker, which could only raise to Cat 5 level if we actually added cocaine to it or something.

Most people DO eat to satiation. What that amounts to is extremely screwed up in modern food culture though. Small children do better solely because they haven’t had a sufficient dose of crappy food supply to wreak sufficient damage – yet. The number of obese 8 year olds is vastly higher than it used to be.

The only time I have ever over-eaten on purpose is when I felt like I was getting something special I almost never did and the supply was limited, or a couple times after metaphysical experiences that created such panic and cognitive dissonance that overstuffing was the intuitive way to re-ground and re-focus. I know they say some people do this for emotional reasons but I suspect aside from the first example, physiology is always behind that. Whether it’s association with treat/holiday times as a kid or simply the brain effects of a certain dosage. Even the extension that causes misery from overeating in gut-bloat has a variety of chemical effects internally.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #409

Actually, the more I ponder this, the more I am inclined to divide people into those who consider their bodies things to be mortified and manipulated, things on which one’s will is to be imposed, and those who wish to regain or retain their health by eating in a healthful, holistic way that involves working in harmony with their bodies. At any rate, these appear to be the two underlying attitudes that motivate many of our discussions here on these forums. I suspect they are the explanation for many of the impasses reached in those discussions, as well.

Your assertion that it is possible to overeat by ignoring hormonal signals ignores the published research on overfeeding, in which the study participants found it extremely difficult to eat a significant amount of food above their satiety levels. It appears that ignoring either hunger or satiety brings with it unpleasant consequences.

It also appears that you are overlooking the published research showing that, while daily intake and expenditure are often at variance, people on an ad libitum diet (i.e., eating to satiety) somehow end up matching their intake and expenditure surprisingly accurately over any given seven- or eight-day period. My own N = 1 shows that, while my appetite varies considerably from day to day (and therefore my intake varies accordingly), my weight has consistently fluctuated within the same 4.5-kilo (10-lb.) range for the past 23 months. (Interestingly, my body composition has changed noticeably over that period of stable weight.)

Of course we are. That goes without saying. The point is that for us, the process is automatic, not one imposed on our bodies.

Of course, the “window” has to be a highly flexible one. Over time (that is, not necessarily day by day), if I spend a few weeks working hard at my desk, the caloric requirements of my hard-working brain get automatically factored in. If I spend a few weeks chopping and stacking wood, the caloric requirements of my hard-working muscles get automatically factored in. And if I catch a fever that prevents me from either thinking or exerting my muscles, well, the lowered caloric requirement of that lack of any kind of physical or mental activity also gets automatically factored in.

You are confusing definitions. A calorie is defined as the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius (at one atmosphere of pressure). However, what we call a “calorie” in the context of food quantities is actually a kilo-calorie, and 4000 kcals is indeed 4,000,000 (four million) standard calories. People used to attempt to keep this in mind by writing “kcal” and capitalising “Calorie,” but it appears that the effort of hitting the shift key or typing one extra letter is too much for the vast majority of us. It might help to remember that a healthy adult human being generally expends somewhere in the neighborhood of 2800 kcals = 2.8 million cals a day.

No, not on the current dietary guidelines. The whole problem is that the excessive amount of carbohydrate we are advised to eat drives up insulin and interferes with the appetite hormones. As a carb burner, I was perfectly capable of being hungry even when I had just filled my stomach to the point where “just wan more waffer-theen meent” would have literally caused my stomach to burst. Yes, I would eat that close to causing myself acute harm. Practically every day. It was not fun, but I was hungry. (Richard is producing a book on this topic, which should be out soon, if not already.)

It is only on keto that I find that I lose interest in food at a point when (I estimate) my stomach is (probably) no more than half-full. Plenty of room for more food, but no desire for it.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #410

You know, if anyone wants a good visual reference for the effects of the current American dietary guidelines, search for unclothed or shirtless people from the period 1940-1970. Notice how many of the men are so skinny that their ribs show, and how many of the women have slender but well-muscled arms and legs.

Then do the same thing for say, the period 1980-2010. Notice how even the fittest men have a layer of sub-cutaneous fat, and how the women are all stocky and flabby.

It’s a pretty dramatic comparison. :bacon::bacon:


(Jane) #411

Or look at old historical pictures of groups of people that were not going through any hardships like a famine. All thin and normal sized with only a few exceptions.

It was only the very rich who became fat and they had access to sugar.


#412

I could easily eat sausage after sausage after sausage after …


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #413

I think we disagree on the universal efficacy of ‘eat to satiety’. If it works, fine, go for it. But if it doesn’t, what are the alternatives? I don’t have strong hunger and satiety signals. I did when I ate SAD, but not on keto. I think my choice to eat to a caloric total that maintains my weight +/- a couple of pounds for multiple years works just fine for me. That does not mean I ignore science. I’m a very observant person and I like to measure and record data. But I have to apply the science to me, whether or not I’m an outlier, singleton or just plain oddball.


(Bunny) #414

Not sure which one I would be but I sometimes eat an entire large pizza by myself and I’m still burning ketones the next day, it’s almost scary.