Can frequent fasting lead to adaptation, addiction and dependency?

#1

I’m really enjoying my fasting regimens for all the reasons posted here - saves time, less hunger, steady energy, improved mood, low inflammation, guilt-free feasting, reversed prediabetes, changed my relationship with food, etc.

I’ve been at OMAD for a couple of years and have recently been adding in 48 & 72 hour fasts. My longest is 6 days. But there are some alarm bells popping up for me:

  • My weight “set point” seems to be 205 pounds and slowly creeping up. I’d prefer to be at 180 or lower, which is where I was 2 years ago. Part of the reason I’ve added in the longer fasts is to try to start a downward trend, but thinking it might be counterproductive.

  • I’ve previously been dismissive of concerns about lowering my BMR, thinking that as long as my appetite was reduced proportionally, I would be fine. But I could be wrong.

  • I’ve noticed that I feel great when fasted, not so much when eating. I’m concerned this is what an eating disorder is like.

  • My biggest fear is that if I eat more frequently, I’ll balloon up to 240 lbs.

Very interested in your thoughts and advice.

(CharleyD) #2

We;re about the same size and I dipped into the upper 170s before rebounding a tad, hovering in the low 200s, myself.

Calorie counting may not be your thing, but it helped me to see or rather feel what 3500 ketogenic calories feels like. What real satiety feels like. Working madly from home has got me back into a purer OMAD now.

Your appetite may be misleading you but you can know with certainly that if you are full fit to burst that that is true satiety and you can stop eating.

The biggest thing to unlearn is that you only stop feeding when you are sated, not when hunger pangs quiet down. To me, that means if it’s steak day, getting well over a pound of it and really trying to finish it. If there’s a bit left, and something inside says that you’ll explode if you take another bite… but hey there’s room for a bit of candy, you know you’re good. Stop eating. It is never lean steak though.

If you try to cut calories, eat like a bird (only until you aren’t hungry anymore) and keep that up for days and weeks, you will likely bring down your BMR and stall the weight loss.

Synthesizing what I’ve learned from Deep Nutrition, weight loss greatly depends on what you tell your DNA. I truly believe that food is information to your DNA and epigenetic milieu. Eating rich meat on the bone until sated is telling your DNA that the Hunt is Good. Pigging out on keto OMAD fits into this.

Eating meager (or worse decreasing amounts in a misguided attempt to follow a CICO model) amounts over a significant date range will tell your DNA that the Hunt is Bad. There will be more epigenetic factors that kick in that will try to hold onto the stored food energy, to make it until the Hunt is Good.

I do have a fringe benefit for calorie tracking through work, but I only use MFP to ensure that I get MORE THAN ENOUGH calories before I stop eating. I don’t use it like I used to before LCHF-IF to get that little dopamine blip it gives you when you close out the dairy (ohhh just 10 more days being this hungry and I’ll be 2.5 lbs lighter, wee! Nope.)

I’ve read through all the IDM program blog up until about a year ago when they changed the site, and have Dr Fung’s book on Obesity Code. The longer fasts are great to reset your weight, but only to a certain point, which is up to your DNA to determine.

Give your DNA the good info it craves, that the Hunt is Good, and it’ll relax.

Oh and yes, if you eat more frequently during the day, yes you’ll gain weight, even on zero carb. You do produce some insulin every time you eat.

#3

Thanks @Dipper_Actual – one idea you’ve given me is food composition: while I have been eating to satiety, I’ve been indulging in more carbs, rationalizing that “hey, my insulin has been low for 23 hours so who cares if I spike it during a feast as long as I follow it with another 23 hour fast.”

Anyway, given your approach, have you been able to move back towards 170, or are you still up there with me?

(CharleyD) #4

While I tell people that are contemplating this WOE that if they do IF it may not hurt to be higher carb than strictly keto, I’m with you, especially after finding Rebel ice cream and Halo Top’s keto offering heh.

I find the weight will drop a pound or two if I do a day or two of carnivore and only drink water or dilute tea. I’m just trying to shake a Diet Dew “recurrence.” That’s been going on two months now. I’m pretty good about green and earl grey tea in the mornings and something herbal in the PM, on weekends, but on work days it’s way too convenient to pour a glass of the green gold to get me moving.
I expect to be at 200 after this weekend, being solo, and the family is at the beach, I can pass the time with some gaming and chores and walking the dog. And not wondering when I’m gonna have time to eat, which paradoxically when I have plenty of time to eat I don’t have the urge or appetite to eat. Funny that. Working really long days for months now has kept the cortisol high I imagine as well.

(Bunny) #5

How tall are you?

You are wasting time with all that fasting, I would focus more on building muscle (esp. doing squats) and burning up what you put into your body before it becomes fat, that’s the real problem and will be a revolving door (you keep coming out on the same side you went in? instead of crossing over?) no matter how much you fast (with-out skeletal muscle support?), burning the accumulation of body fat is much more difficult than trying to prevent in the first place?

Skeletal muscle controls how much adipose tissue accumulates and what gets burned up and not stored after you eat it and not the ketone producing mitochondria in the liver; that is all your achieving by obsessively fasting?

No matter how much you eat ketogenically or fast, or restrict carbohydrates; you may curtail diabetes to some extent but the song will always remain the same, you will still be fat or get fat again until carbohydrate and skeletal muscle are increased exponentially to adipose tissue ratios.

I saw this in a recent email from Ben Greenfield; What is so awesome about this, is that it hits the nail right on the head:

[1] this is why you need carbs…

If you’ve been following a low carbohydrate diet and have experienced weight loss plateaus, hormone imbalances, low energy, or a decline in athletic performance…

…then you might want to consider implementing strategic carbohydrate refeeds into your diet.

These refeeds are often done on a periodic basis (such as daily or weekly) and are an effective strategy for minimizing potential negative hormonal or metabolic effects from long term low carbohydrate intake. …” - Ben Greenfield

[2] ”…It does not matter what you eat on a cheat day, it is the other 6 days that matter?..” - Elle Ip

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(Patricia) #6

This is interesting, but I’m almost afraid to try it. I’ve been doing keto for over 3 years, lost 55 pounds in the first year and stalled ever since. I still have 25 to 30 pounds to lose. I’m also in my late sixties, female, and have a family history of type 2 diabetes. Would a sudden jump in carbs once a week put me into a carb coma or spike my insulin levels so much that it would some harm to my body? This all gets very confusing with all the differing opinions on the ways to do keto.

(Joey) #7

I’ll open with this semi-snarky comment: everything done repeatedly can produce adaptation, addiction and dependency. That’s how the human condition works :wink:

To be a more helpful, I do find your comment below to be a bit troubling …

… presumably you appreciate that - when eating carbs - the concept of satiety typically goes out the window?

When munching on a bag containing some high carb “snack,” most of us could chow through the entire bag and still not feel satisfied. Only when one cuts out the carbs does the notion of eating-to-satiety begin to make sense. And after years of carb loading, many of us take a long while to figure out what true satiety even feels like.

Note what @atomicspacebunny says … regarding the value of building strength/muscle. Good advice. Although, working out is not closely linked with weight loss (some researchers would say: not at all), it does help enhance your metabolic state on many fronts.

Between building muscle strength (note: cardio is not terribly effective for this) and cutting out those carb “indulgences” again, you’ll become the most healthy “you” that’s possible. No doubt, that’s what you’re really after, right?

Best wishes! :vulcan_salute:

#8

Thanks @atomicspacebunny and @SomeGuy – you are both going beyond my question as written and speaking to its intent, which I appreciate!

@atomicspacebunny - you have been posting about muscle to adipose tissue ratios, which is not something I’ve considered until you brought it up. I’m googling for articles, but if there is a definitive one you can recommend, I’ll read it start to finish.

I’ve found resistance training less rewarding in the last 5 years as I don’t see gains. I had thought it was due to lower testosterone, but I’m now thinking your Ben Greenfield reference might do the trick: sequence carb refeeds with weight training and maybe I’ll see results? And, even if I don’t see gains, the process might be metabolically more healthy than being at a steady low blood sugar state?

Yes, that would describe me. I can easily fast for 48 hours, but once I get into the Oreos, it’s all over. Based on the information I’m learning above, it seems that should sequence carbs with weight training. I still need to figure out when to carb (before, during, or after weight training).

(Joey) #9

I’m still puzzled by the notion of your trying to figure out “when to carb” (i.e., before, during, after…)?

In your original post, you expressed that your primary fear is the prospect of gaining weight. So it seems fairly easy to figure out when you should “carb” (… especially as one who struggles when confronted with a bag of Oreos):

I would kindly suggest that - much in the way that we prepare our farm animals for market - you should eat carbs when you’re eager to gain weight through increased fat tissue.

Otherwise, beyond trace carbs in your healthy greens, eggs, etc., there’s no time that you should be reaching for carbs. None. :wink:

[Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I’m trying to offer some candid advice in response to your original post and what you’ve shared along the way.]

#10

Thanks @SomeGuy – I get your point. Even though I’ve not always been rigorously compliant, I’ve been in the “minimize carbs” camp for the last 10 years, at least in spirit. And I’ve had some “zero-carb” carnivore periods. So I’m already biased towards your point of view.

The issue is that I’ve lost the ability to increase muscle mass, either due to aging, nutrition, or some other adaptation. So, I’m intrigued by the information that @atomicspacebunny has shared above about carbohydrate refeeds, and the possibility of increasing muscle mass by weight training in the presence of higher blood glucose/insulin/hydration than I currently have.

(Joey) #11

Still puzzled, but much less now. Thanks and best wishes!

(CharleyD) #12

Hey @Tulip keto for 3 years? Your metabolism won’t even flinch if you have a carby meal. I was just as paranoid about it as you :slight_smile: Your digestion may gripe a bit, especially if it’s wheat, I wouldn’t recommend pizza!

(CharleyD) #13

It’s possibly testosterone. I had mine checked when dealing with this frozen shoulder and ‘thankfully’ it was borderline low enough that when I went to a urologist for a Rx, insurance didn’t gripe. After a closed manipulation and serious sports medicine PT with androgel, it’s almost 100% now.
I don’t get it, I lost all the abdominal visceral fat, went back to taekwondo, and calisthenics to failure, eat more fat and eggs supplying all the precursor nutrients, and polished up sleep hygiene. Guess it was just my body’s time to ramp down the production.

(Patricia) #14

Ha, ha, yes, I splurged at the party for our grandson’s high school graduation, and my system didn’t appreciate it the next day. Back on the wagon now. That’s one of the great things about keto - I have no trouble going back to it. Every diet I had been on was lost once I slipped up.