Can carb cycling help a noob?

(Ray ) #1

Hey guys, Ive started my ketogenic journey 2months ago hoping to gain more energy and reduce my IBS. My Question is, if You feel like shit Even after 2months on keto (with some slip ups), could carb cycling/recarbing be a solution? To ease the body into getting fat adapted? If so, what are You experiences doing carb cycling? And what protocoll do You use?

The reason for me being curious about this is because i was at a barbeque yesterday where I tossed my keto strictness down the drain (i felt like shit anyways so I might AS Well indulge). I probably overate on meats, but tried to keep carb intake on a low. And when I woke up this morning I felt like the king of the world, full of life and vitality. Whereas following previous keto strictness left me mostly feeling totaly like shit with severe signs, resembling depression.
Is the keto adaptation process supposed to be like this? It feels like i cant Shake of the keto flu, so the process feels unbearable

In terms of water and electrolytes, Im drinking atleast 2L of water daily, sodium intake is atleast 5g through water or crazy sprinkling on food.
I take magnesium (400mg). I Even drink the fats from the plate to ensure that I Get all the fats and calories(which I Find unappealing, but necessary).
I just ordered some cream of tar tar to kick up my potassium since I also don´t have my daily poop, in case potassium is off the mark.

My profile: 30yo male, 171cm, 74kg, lean and muscular, history of IBS, depression and chronic fatigue.

(Mike W.) #2

What are you hoping to accomplish by eating more carbs?

(Ray ) #3

Hi MiKetoAF, great question.
I hope to stop feeling like crap everyday (probably the keto flu), by adding one day with extra carbs every other week/third week.
Do you have any experience by doing that?
I know people say, keepcalmandketoon, but I just cant take it feeling depressed every day until I get fat adapted.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #4

The “keto flu” is the result of low sodium levels in the blood. The cure is to make sure to get a total of 2.5 teaspoons of table salt a day (including whatever is naturally present in your food).

The level of salt intake recommended by the U.S. government is unhealthily low; recent research, including the PURE study from McMaster U., suggests that the healthiest level is 5000 milligrams of sodium/day, which works out to the aforementioned 2.5 tsp. Since the study participants (from a number of countries around the world) were unlikely to have been in ketosis, it is possible that the sweet spot is a bit higher for ketonians, since our kidneys excrete more sodium in the absence of carbohydrate.

#5

Good info!

#6

I would go with your experience and maybe try a carb up once a week or so and see how you do. That’s not what works for most folks on here, but most folks here do not find that they feel amazing the morning after extra carbs! Usually that next day is miserable and it takes several more days to get back to feeling good.

If you’re being careful with your electrolytes- and it sounds like you are- then carb flu symptoms should definitely not drag on for two months…

#7

How much are you cheating currently? A burger and fries for example, could wreck your metabolism for days.
If you’re cheating once or twice a week you are putting your body in a horrible spot. Not enough sugar and not quite adapted to burning fat. That would be a depressing place to be.
More carbs in my opinion is the opposite of the solution. You gotta starve those little bastards out so the miracle can happen.

#8

There is a good chance that you are not metabolically deranged. Your body may be maintaining an appropriately low insulin level even when you eat carbs. As such, your response may be different than what many on this forum (myself included) experience.

For the issues you are trying to address, it may be beneficial to definitely know blood glucose and blood ketone levels so that you can corelate it to how you feel. Are you in ketosis? Do you feel good when you are in ketosis? Do you feel weak when you are in ketosis? Is your blood glucose elevated or low? Does that effect how you feel?

There is no general answer to your questions. Its specific to you. Get a Keto Mojo, keep a log of the readings and also note how you feel. It shouldn’t take more than a few weeks to discern a pattern.

(Ray ) #9

Thank you for a great reply PaulL, I can try to up my sodium to 2,5TS and see what happens :slight_smile:

(Ray ) #10

Yeah, it might be that Im not fully keto adapted like you´re saying. I think I accidentaly ate too much protein yesterday, like 150g (30grams over my target mark of 120) because I was traveling. And today I woke up with a stronger drive and vitality than the day before, probably due to gluconeogenesis of the excess protein. Its just ridiculous that my body is so damn stubborn about clinging on to carbohydrates. Im usually below 20g carb a day, which leaves me feeling extremely weak and depressed. Might it be an idea to increase my daily carb to maybe 30-40g carb a day?

(Ray ) #11

Hi Chris, Im not “consciously” cheating at the moment. However, because of traveling yesterday I made “low carb” burgers which were supposed to be below 20g in net carb in total (the bread). On the other hand, I think I ate too much protein yesterday which kicked me out of ketosis, or it mightve been the low carb bread dough I used to make the burger bread.
Thank you for the advice, but what do people do in order to “survive” keto flu for two weeks, juggling work and studies?

(Ray ) #12

Thanks 4dml for youre input.
I currently use ketone strips, but like everyone is saying they seem quite unreliable when trying to figure out whether Im in ketosis or not. During my “adaptation” periods Ive never really felt good. Maybe its because Ive been accidentaly carbing out, or maybe I havent stayed persistent long enough in order to get my body to adapt.
Great advice on the keto mojo, but since Im a student that is a luxury I wish I could afford. Do you know if there´s any other measurement tools that measures ketones that are less expensive?

#13

Nope, but it’s almost guaranteed to make you feel worse. Cyclical Keto doesn’t work. Everybody that does it comes to the same conclusion and then goes to Standard Keto, or Targeted Keto. “Carbing up” will help with energy levels for a day or two, seeing you would have had no glycogen stores at that point you’d have a day or two at best… then what? Crash all over again! It’s a perpetual cycle that’ll screw with your ability to fat adapt correctly.

Being lean and muscular also changes stuff. Unless you’re a genetic freak and you’re just like that, safe bet you’re in the gym and lifting regularly. Is your protein up where it needs to be? If you’re following most normal keto macros (at least here) then they won’t be. You need to make sure your muscles are getting what they need or the energy levels and your workouts will suffer pretty quickly. What’s a sample day of your eating look like? Also, 2L of water isn’t even close to enough.

#14

Add salt and stay hydrated.

#15

Do you use net or total carbs? I think you are relating carb consumption to energy which is a thing of the past to us. Why not try reducing your carb intake to as little as possible <20g total carbs a day.

(Ken) #16

After two months, you should be fairly adapted. And yes, it’s fine to experiment with adding some carbs back in for metabolic purposes. Especially when you’re showing negative metabolic effects, no matter how many “Nutty Keto Dogma” explanations are thrown at you by noobs. It’s “Occam’s Razor”, or the simplist and therefore most likely explanation for what you’ve described. The point is to make sure you introduce them so as not to create chronic overcompensation of glycogen when you do it. That means intermittant and periodic consumption.

The easiest thing to try would be to eat carbs on the Weekend, while lowering fat during the same time. My rule is that when I eat carbs, say for a day, I don’t eat’em for the following two. It works the same way with one meal.

There’s no possibility of fat regain with the strategy, while the metabolic positives can be huge. You’ll just have to try a bit and see what happens.

(Bunny) #17

Cyclical Ketogenic Diet: Eat high fat, very low carb (<50g net carbs/day) 6 days a week, then have a carb refeed on day 7 (~150g net carbs). This is what the Bulletproof Diet is based on. Here’s why: Some people (Dave included) have thyroid issues when they do very low carb with no carb refeed [1]. For some people, chronic low-carb eating can lead to low mucous production, which disrupts gut bacteria [2] and causes dry eyes.

Do Not Do Carb Cycling on a Keto & Intermittent Fasting Plan: Dr. Berg talks about carb cycling. Because most people are insulin resistance, they do not do well on carbs. They need a low carb diet. Because if takes a while to convert to ketosis, adding carbs back into the diet merely puts them back into sugar burning and slows their progress. Our body was designed to burn fat and live on ketones merely from the massive fat storage it has compared to the small amount of glycogen reserve. Yes, carbs will make you feel better as you are going through keto adaptation because it will raise the blood sugar, but at the expense of taking you away from running on ketones. The best thing to do is do keto correctly with intermittent fasting so you are 100% in keto adaption and the need for carbs will be non-existent.

Should I Cycle Carbs on Keto?
Dr. Berg answers the question, “should you cycle carbs on keto”. The answer is no. You don’t need carbs - there is no essential carbs. Your body can make glucose out of protein or fat[1]. The goal is to build up your health reserve so high that you can afford an occasional deviation off your healthy eating plan.

Footnotes:

[1]The Production of Glucose From Protein or Fat

(Ken) #18

Speaking of “Nutty Keto Dogma”, in denial of Human Evolution and Biochemistry…

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #19

How many slip ups are we talking? If it’s enough, you already have your experiment in carb cycling.