Calorie restriction?

calories

#61

I haven’t read everyone’s comments yet, but I wanted to put how little calories seem to matter for me on this WOE.

I’ve been consistently hitting 2500 calories everyday for weeks, and I’ve went up to 3000 a few times, yesterday being one of them. I’m doing an experiment to see how I react to different levels of calories on keto. I “lost” half a pound yesterday, I say “lost” because I’m in maintenance and basically just go up and down 2 pounds from one weight now. My TDEE is around 1700, and I’m not very active at all. As long as I don’t go over 40ish net carbs (I can tolerate that fine) and don’t eat certain sugars like dextrin, I seem to not gain anything.

I used to believe in CICO. When I started eating these larger amounts of calories, I did gain 10 pounds or so, but I think I needed to adjust to eating more again, and I also think I was too small for my body’s liking at that point. But as I said, now I can eat a crap ton and maintain.

Oh yeah, I should put this here: I’m a teenager and before keto, 1400 calories was dangerous for my waistline. #NeverAgain


#62

What ever…


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #63

Ah. There’s a bit of confusion here. We make a distinction between eating to satiety and restricting calories, because intentionally restricting calories has the risk of being counterproductive by depriving the body of energy it needs. That would, in truth, be a calorie deficiency, and the body responds to it in ways we generally do not want.

But one of the benefits of a well-formulated ketogenic diet is that it restores appetite as a reliable guide to how much energy the body needs. So if we eat to hunger (satiety), we will eat at a level that gives the body an energy abundance, and that abundance will come both from the food we eat and from our excess stored fat (remember that a certain minimum of stored fat is required for safety’s sake, around 10-12% of body weight for men, around 21% for women). As you correctly state, this by no means constitutes a caloric deficiency, and I argue that it is also not a caloric restriction, because the body itself is setting the intake.

Dr. Phinney has stated that his research subjects, in the initial phase of a well-formulated ketogenic diet, generally end up consuming somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 calories a day, the rest of their energy needs being made up from stored fat. And as the excess fat is metabolized, of course, their daily caloric consumption increases until they reach the point of having no more fat that the body is willing to part with, and all their energy needs are met by diet alone. There is no need for calorie-counting at any stage of this process, as long as we continue eating to satiety.

It might also be worth mentioning some anecdotes in the other direction: Gary Taubes mentions in one of his books a research study involving a low-carb, high-fat diet, in which one of the subjects, while eating to satiety, consumed somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 calories a day, and he lost just as much weight as the other subjects, whose caloric intake was far less.

And the British nutrition activist, Sam Feltham, recently performed an experiment on himself, in which he undertook to eat a 5000-calorie low-carb, high-fat diet every day for a month. All that happened was he gained a small amount of muscle and lost a small amount of fat (he was already lean), while his total weight decreased slightly. I read recently on these forums that he also performed the equivalent experiment, but eating a high-carb, low-fat diet, and gained quite a bit of weight, but I haven’t seen any post from him describing such an experiment.

All anecdotal, but suggestive.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #64

Be sure not to stint your protein. The protein guidelines usually mentioned here apply to adults who have already finished growing. You need lots more, so that you can put on healthy muscle and bone mass. And don’t count calories—your job right now is to eat your parents out of house and home! :bacon:


#65

I don’t restrict anything but carbs. I’m not worried about gluconeogenesis or whatever and I eat a lot more protein than the standard keto diet recommends. I’ve always been more protein hungry and couldn’t go moderate protein. A year on keto has taught me that I need all the protein :wink:

Oh, and trust me, I do eat the houses empty. My dad used to only get a dozen eggs a week, now he has to get 4, and don’t get me started on the meat freezer. I could eat a horse, figuratively and literally.

All the food evaporates WAY too quickly :cut_of_meat: :slight_smile:


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #66

That’s what I wanted to hear. Bravo! :+1: Stay healthy, and keto on! :bacon:


#67

You, too! Happy bacon eating to all! :stuck_out_tongue:


#68

Fair enough. If someone’s focus is keto and they’re absolutely sure they are in Ketosis then it is definitely one story but since we are all conditioned to restrict calories I thought the 800 cals might jump off the page and straight into some other reader’s brain. And then they’d try to limp along with some pseudo keto diet where their major focus is calorie restriction with a few low carb thoughts thrown in. So I was just clarifying (I hope)

At any rate no matter the diet if people are getting all the essential fatty acids, proteins, vitamins and micro-nutrients…

Dr Eric Westman says “anything below 1000 cals is a problem and needs addressing”


(Empress of the Unexpected) #69

I understand that as a general concept, but there has to be a range where height, weight, and build are taken into account. I think if a person is smaller, and eats to satiety, and that happens to be 1000 calories or under, that should not be a problem.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #70

Not to mention mitochondrial health and basal metabolic rate.


#71

Yes, agreed, it’s just a “rule of thumb” and of course all factors need to be considered.


(Empress of the Unexpected) #73

And that could relate to age as well.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #74

Both “satiety” and “satisfaction” are derived from the Latin satis ‘enough.’ I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it is a sensation of not wanting any more. For me, that sensation comes when my stomach is about half-full, so it’s different from that gut-stretched sense of fullness that I experienced as a sugar-burner.

As a sugar-burner, I could eat half a pound of pasta, say, and my stomach would be literally so full I could imagine it bursting, as in that Monty Python movie, and I’d still be hungry for more. I continued to eat that sort of quantity after starting to eat keto, but one day, at lunch, between one bite and the next, I suddenly did not want any more. This was truly weird, because my plate was still half full, and it had been decades since the last time I had stopped eating with food still on my plate. Nevertheless, I could not face another mouthful, so I had to put my plate in the fridge for later—much later.

That signal of enough has only gotten stronger since then, to the point where I sometimes feel almost nauseated at the thought of more food. But again, it’s not a sensation of fullness, but of enough— “enoughness” so strong that I actively do not want food. I think this is what the coiner of the phrase “the anorexia of ketosis” had in mind, but as far as I can tell, it’s not a disorder, but rather how things should be working.


#75

It’s hard to describe that to people. Like I ate a large order of wings and got down to the last two and just didn’t want to eat anymore. I could have if I wanted to. And it’s not like I was sickly full. I just didn’t want to, my body said “enough” and I’m like “well okay.”


#76

Your body tells you.

To be honest I was initially rather frustrated by this idea of “eat to satiety”. I had formed habits of eating until plate is clean or eating until jam packed …

After going keto - I measured calories on my app to help me stick to a sane limit. Let’s say between 1300 to 1600/1800. But after a while I rediscovered that feeling “hey, I’m pretty full now” or “man, I just cannot eat any more”.

Now I eat until it feels about right. No chemistry set required. It’s just a feeling and amazingly it works. So it seems it was good clinical advice after all.

I was also hedging my bets. I totally believed keto would work. But I thought I had to help it just to make sure.

I found if I nail the 20g carbs and don’t get kicked out by any hidden carbs then it all “just works”.


#77

THE KETOGENIC BIBLE, is salvation


(Robert C) #78

Satiety - Yes - your body tells you, but, of course, it is your brain that decides to listen or not.

Give a one-year-old a piece of their first sugar laden birthday cake and it hits the pleasure center of the brain so hard - they’ll seek out similar things constantly (and may do so for the rest of their life).

It is a reinforced addiction cycle made possible with our modern food environment.
People grow to several hundred pounds while chasing hits on that pleasure center (continuing to eat after feeling painfully full).

Now we discover that getting rid of the pleasure center stimulant naturally moves you to an eating pattern where you will maintain a reasonable weight (which is simply another way of saying you eat what you need to eat - no more, no less). Keto!


#79

chill out …


#80

Sorry Ketoloco but I wasn’t referring to you at all, please don’t take it that way. I was thinking of some other casual readers not familiar with the ketogenic diet.

I just know how ingrained calorie counting is in our society and how magnetically drawn the uninitiated reader would be to it. I know my family certainly think along those lines. They don’t hear anything else they say “yeah yeah, we know it all …” - “as long as you don’t overeat you’ll be right”. They completely miss the point about 20g carbs.

So no worries. Take care.


#82

This was strictly rhetorical, implying the lack of substantial fundamentals to base an educated guess.