Best of both worlds?

#1

So there is obviously a conflict between the suggestion that we should eat lots of carbs in the form of plants and go easy on the meats and other fatty foods.

Then there is the keto side which is the polar opposite of this.

Both have studies that show that they are healthy and have clear benefits.

So, what if one were to eat a high carb, high veggie, low fat diet for four days a week, nothing for one day, then keto for two days, lather, rinse, repeat?

Or a variation on this. Maybe veggies and carbs for five days, one day nothing, one day keto and so on?

(Carpe salata!) #2

A lot of people use keto to keep their high insulin under control. Also, for some people, it’s easier to control overeating when on keto.

There are probably other reasons too.

(Ernest) #3

What’s the goal exactly?
That just sounds like wrecking your system.
Try it out and see how you feel. I wouldn’t do it.
Keep in mind too that there’s no such thing as essential carbohydrates.

(VLC.MD) #4

That’s the worst of both worlds
Don’t go there.

Fry, you sound a bit lost.

The only good veggies have little to no carbs.

What are your goals Fry ?

#5

There are certainly people who do quite well on a plant based, low fat diet. This forum has lots of folks doing well on a low carb, high fat diet. Some of us, maybe most of us, could do well strictly adhering to either. Both diets avoid sugar, and the highly processed foods of the SAD. Both are relatively hard to over consume, the former because it’s tasteless, the latter because it’s satiating. However, the diets are not necessarily, opposing views. Some low carb proponents, like Dr Perlmutter (Grain Brain series) advocate eating lots of green and cruciferous veggies and natural fats (ie. avocado, nuts) rather than added on fats. The general consensus in the low carb community is that protein should be moderated to some extent.

It’s possible to have a well formulated low carb diet that is plant heavy. For example, a couple of days ago, I had a Poke bowl from a sushi bar. It had tuna, salmon, avocado, edamame, cucumber, onion and a secret sauce drizzled on top. The only thing I needed to ask them to leave out was the rice. A more friendly DIY meal might be half a pound of broccoli in a cheese sauce and a 6 oz ribeye. Or how about a spinach salad topped with pecans, feta, and bacon. There are plenty of non starchy veggies that consumption of 1-2 lbs a day could still fall within the constraints of a low carb diet. This is especially true if you’re not insulin resistant.

I’m a carnivore, but there are keto vegans:

Here’s the bottom line. Design a diet that makes your body happy. If your health and fitness markers are good, chances are your lifestyle is congruent with your body. If not, make changes and track the results. Then adjust as needed.

#6

@Ernest

Thanks. I was in ketosis for a solid year with incredible results but now have discovered some studies that I do not like.

The goal is reaping the benefits of keto to at least some degree while not killing myself at the same time. I am hung up on the overwhelming support for the high carb low fat diet amongst the medical community for heart disease prevention and a couple of studies that show raised cholesterol or stiffened arteries on a ketogenic diet. However, other than heart disease it seems that there are no points at all that are not obviously better on a ketogenic diet.

So the ketogenic diet is the clear choice in almost every way but that very important one.

There is such a thing as the 5:2 diet and this idea mimics that but ensures two days of ketosis rather than just two days of running on stored carbs.

It would also, presumably, keep one’s arteries healthy and cholesterol low while still allowing for some ketosis once a week to reduce inflammation and all of the other wonderful things it does.

(Duncan Kerridge) #8

High carb low fat is the normal diet for the vast majority of people and is the one prescribed in the food guidelines - it hasn’t exactly lead to a healthier world has it?

#9

@4dml

Thanks. See, the issue is that I know keto has incredible benefits. My health was pretty bad before I ate keto for an entire year. Now it is much better. I do not really want to eat carbs, they start making me feel bad usually a few days into eating them…

However, I have read some studies that have gotten me spooked about keto, this is the problem.

My keto diet is high in plant foods anyway, but I have become concerned about the fat.

My daily diet usually includes peanut butter, milk, eggs, collard greens in chicken stock with onions and garlic, broccoli, 1/4 C potato, strawberries, olives, cashews and chicken (that’s my daily intake but there are more foods on that list that vary). And yes I know some consider some of those foods to be “not keto” but I did this for a year and regularly tested for ketones and was always in ketosis. I control quantities and count carbs for optimal nutrition while maintaining ketosis.

#10

@Duncan_K

Hey, I’m with you! The only thing i’m hung up on are some studies showing that keto raises cholesterol or stiffens arteries. Other than that, I think it’s the clear choice for health (of course with the mention that there are societies who eat high carb low fat and are healthy).

If I could just get some kind of positive info that shows that it is good for arteries and cholesterol then I would be all set.

(Ernest) #11

Technically you won’t be in ketosis, eating high carbs for 5 days then “keto style” for 2 days.
But if it’s very important to you, try it out.
I really do not see the benefits of high carbs/ low fat. It just doesn’t make any sense.

I hope you find your sweet spot.

(VLC.MD) #12

Please keep researching.
That being said Nutritional Science is an oxymoron.

I think you are overstating the risk and benefits of keto or any other way of eating.

You dont have to be full blown keto forever. Cycle to VLC diet - say 40-60 grams as day for a year. It might be ideal.

No one knows.

Certainly an ideal way to keto is more healthy fats. Monounsaturated > Saturated > PolyUnsaturated > Trans

And these foods aren’t good:

bread
rice
pasta
potatoes
cereal
sugar
rice

I think of Keto as tool.
Sounds like you used the tool well.

Surely you have learned that Carbs are bad FOR FRY You

I will say this … for me.

Options:
(A) Standard American Diet - rest of my life, probably gain 5-10 lbs every decade until I die.
(B) Lost 25 lbs on Keto, dabbled in carbs, mostly good ones, less saturated fats. Weight goes up and down. Go back to Keto periodically.
© Lost 25 lbs on Keto, stayed mostly keto the rest of my life.

B might be for you.
B is safer than A.
B is better for you and what “Your A” might be.

Is C better than B ? I am not sure.
C is better than A (As far as I can tell so far).

What am I going to do ? I’m C until I find reason to switch (which I haven’t) (aka C is the null hypothesis for me).

Enjoy the Journey.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #13

Could you post some of those studies that have you freaked out? As the big metadata studies have pretty much found SAD to be a joke.

You can eat vegan or vegetarian keto, several websites offer eating plans and lists of foods. The fats you should be avoiding are the seed oils, cotten, soybean, corn oil, etc. You should be eating low carb, moderate protein and just enough fat to satiety.

When I explain my LCHF to others I tell them I eat a low carb healthy fats diet. Saturated fat is a healthy fat, as is olive and avocado fat.

#14

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is n=1.
You’ve been eating keto for a while, so get a blood panel done and see what your numbers are. If your very concerned, take it a step further and get a coronary calcium scan, which is a definitive test for heart disease.

#15

@Ernest

Well the idea was that a 24 hour fast and then two keto days would be two days in ketosis (because of the fast). I a reading about cholesterol right now so hopefully I will be convinced to stay in keto all the time!!!

#16

@4dml

What is “n=1”?

I do need to get a calcium scan. That is clearly so much more clear than getting a lipid panel. I could have great cholesterol numbers but totally clogged arteries! Or I could have high cholesterol but nice clear arteries. However a calcium scan is exactly how open or clogged your arteries are. I just wish there was a non x ray version like an MRI one or something.

#17

@collaroygal

Thanks but sat fat is sat fat, doesn’t matter where it comes from, it worries me. When I spoke about high plant foods I meant ones that are low in fat and of course these alone would not suffice for a keto diet.

Here is the study that freaked me out.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4325592/

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #18

There are some ultasound scans that can be done. I have had the Carotid Artery and Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm unltasounds done. One checks the artery leading up into the brain, the other checks the Aortic vessel leading into your heart. There is also a test for Arterial Stiffness Index. An EKG can also give you a good benchmark. Ask your dr. about getting those done. I had mine done at a health fair a couple of years ago and will reset in another year.

Please read the postings in the Show me the science forum. The low fat fad was started on faulty science. Dr. Keyes did the world a large disservice with his faulty research.

#19

@collaroygal

Thank you. I understand this but the issue is that the study I linked above shows that ketosis causes arterial stiffening. I am looking for further information on this and whether or not it is something to worry about but no one seems to really know.

(Brian) #20

Fry, you might want to search out Dave Feldman’s Youtube video that you’d find easily with the words, “Feldman Protocol”. You want to see someone lower their cholesterol? Have a look. It may not work quite like you think.

#21

I could be very much mistaken but I think a keto diet as practiced for epilepsy is not identical to what most of us eat. First, it is a higher percentage of fat. Also, the fat that is given is not necessarily good quality fat but can be made from seed oils. Note they mention that a less stringent diet would be Atkins which is probably what most of us eat.

I think the second study from Italy is worthless, it did not measure pre keto levels and merely compared them to controls without knowing anyone’s baseline. Given the small sample size this is questionable. Also, this is a review article, you may want to go back and read the original studies. One of the things I have recently discovered is that scientific articles do not always say what they claim to. In the first Swedish study, the arteries went back to normal at 24 months presumably while still eating keto