Autophagy

(Ethan) #10

IDM has said many of their patients do 5:2 fasting!

(Allie) #11

I’ve wondered about the autophagy thing a lot as Dr Fung said, in the Fasting Talk podcast, that it takes five days for a sugar burner to get to the point where the good things like this happen to their bodies… but this was because they spent the first three days getting into ketosis, so if you’re already fat adapted, does that mean it can happen with two day fasts? I know there’s no real answer but it’s been on my mind.

(Ethan) #12

Sadly, there is very little known about the autophagy process, what triggers it, what blocks it, how long it lasts, etc.

(Allie) #13

And some say it just happens naturally without any sort of fasting too. Well I’ll just keep doing my thing and see what happens. I do quite like the idea of regenerating all the cells in my body as I’m sure some of them are tired and worn out…

(Ethan) #14

No way to know, but we can try a lot of things! To some extent, we know its continuous. For example, it’s well proven that our skin cells die and are replaced. We know that approximately 10% of our fat cells die and are replaced each year.

(Jena) #15

I agree with your last sentence - what type of fasting do you do?

#16

Somewhere on this very message board there is a thread that claims that fat supplementation during EF will not interrupt autophagy. To that end I did have a bone broth with some butter on day 2 of my 3 day fast during February. In other words I made it about 48 hours straight up. Was that sufficient for autophagy?

#17

From what I’ve heard from Jason Fung and Megan Ramos, if you are fasting for autophagy as your main goal you should consume nothing except water and salt. We don’t really know if black coffee, tea, or a small amount of fat will inhibit autophagy so to be safe it’s best to stick with water. Bone broth almost certainly stops autophagy due to the protein.

My personal opinion is fix the biggest problems first. If you are trying to fix insulin resistance then fast for that reason and don’t worry as much about autophagy until later. In a perfect world we’d all be at our goal weight and only then do a one week water only fast per year for disease prevention but that’s easier said than done. The truth of the matter is we don’t have a clue if even something as minor as using soap or brushing ones teeth can inhibit autophagy. My guess is that dry fasting is the only way to go into full autophagy, anything else including water and salt will still get you there but probably to a lesser extent. Just my theory.

Fasting for Health Benefits Already Lean
(KCKO, KCFO) #18

Protein and carbs cause the Mtor pathway to shut down. Butter would have some protein, tiny amount but some. I don’t think plain water will effect the autophagy. There is a video on IDM website that talks about this.

#19

Most all foods contain protein, fat and carbs if I’m not mistaken. As for the water thing you could be right but we don’t have the science yet, for example can brushing your teeth cause insulin secretion? Or a CPR which results in insulin secretion?

Can you link that video please? I think I’ve seen it before but I can’t recall.

(Allie) #20

@Goodman whatever I feel like at the time :blush: Sometimes IF with a fasting window of at least 16 hours but go as long as I can, often ends up as OMAD. Other times extended 48 or 72 hours - 72 is the longest so far. It keeps my body guessing as I don’t even know what schedule I’ll be doing :joy:

(KCKO, KCFO) #21

Been reading up more on autophagy. Putting some links in here so I can find them again.

(KCKO, KCFO) #22

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this.

Here is a search of IDM for autophagy. I can’t remember which one first brought up the water, no protein discussion. They are all worth reading. It was the blog that contained them not the videos, my bad:grimacing:

https://idmprogram.com/?s=autophagy

(Doug) #23

I’d like to see a comparison between a diet including olive oil and fasting. Still - if anything this looks promising to me.

(karen) #24

I like the finding but I don’t trust it, studies like this make me want to scream: if you want to know if it’s OLIVE OIL, then you have to give other mice a macro-nutrient identical diet without olive oil. All this study can really show is that adding FAT (which happened to be olive oil) to the diet made a difference. Maybe butter or 10W40 would have been equally beneficial. Since this should be obvious to a sixth grade science student, I assume this study was funded by Big Olive.

(Doug) #25

Karen, would be good to see a study adding other saturated fats, as well…

(Failed) #26

Is this based on real research do you think?
https://selfhacked.com/blog/autophagy-benefits-and-how-to-harness/

Also, I have been posting about how inositol and choline supplementation has been making it so I don’t have any carb cravings. However, I just found this saying that inositol stops autophagy.

autophagy and inositol.pdf (184.8 KB)

(KCKO, KCFO) #27

Selfhacked always has links to the studies related to the articles.
“There are additional mechanisms for turning on and off autophagy that do not involve mTOR/AMPK. The inhibition of inositol monophosphatase and disruptions to the endoplasmic reticulum (causing the creation of faulty proteins) can both turn on autophagy [105, 104].”

(Todd Allen) #28

The article is consistent with what I’ve seen elsewhere regarding autophagy. I think the research is “real” but how much of it is correct and relevant is debatable. One issue is a lack of means to evaluate the need for autophagy or the degree to which one activates it via any of these mechanisms. Thus we have endless debates about how often and long we should fast and how “pure” the fast needs to be.

(KCKO, KCFO) #29

This thread is old but seems like a good spot for this article on Mammalian
macroautophagy at a glance. I am still trying to understand all of it, will take a few reads I think :slight_smile: