Attempting my first 14 day water/electrolyte fast

(Michael) #21

Hi Paul,

You raise some interesting questions. I will be laying bricks and finishing the interlocking in the top half of my driveway today. Probably mowing the lawn too as well as a few family commitments, so it might take a few days, but let me get back to you on this one.

(Michael) #22

Quick Update - may edit later after getting work done today.

Last night at hour 75 of my fast I had my lowest GK reading while awake (3.9), so it looks like my insulin levels final dropped due to fasting (bit later than expected). Yesterday I had two small loose bowel movements. I had another small loose movement this morning. Got over 6 hours last night and over 7 the night before. Still a bit tired, but sleep sure helps - almost caught up.
This morning - hour 83, GK 4.8, bHB 1.9. I was going to wait until noon for the reading, but I was too curious after last nights 3.9 GK.

So far so good. Felt admittedly hungry 3 times yesterday, but overall it’s been an easy outing so far. Feel fine except for a bit tired from previously poor sleeps earlier in fast.

(Michael) #23

While I felt good yesterday morning, by the afternoon I started to feel very tired and crappy. I tried to nap multiple times, but could not (I bet if I had I would have felt better). Went to bed thinking that if I did not get a good night’s sleep, I would be terminating the fast. However, I slept well, and today was much better for the whole day. I worked outside again for a few hours and again felt pretty darn hungry a few times. Certainly still have some hunger pains. I do cook everyday for my family though, so that does not help (cooked a huge steak and cut it up today - that looked appealing :slight_smile: )
Had a medium amount of diarrhea this morning and a second small bout in the afternoon. Kind of surprised I have not skipped a messy morning bowel movement yet. I was a little surprised my ketones have not gone about 4, tomorrow morning I guess. GKI still just above 1 tonight, so for me, looks more like 6 days to get a GKI ratio under 1 currently at least, with my current metabolic state.
I have been very busy lately, so I have not had time to create nice graphs, but still hope to (sometime).

Date Time Glucose bHB GKI Weight (in pounds)
6-Aug 12:39:00AM 5.3 1.1 4.818181818 152.4 Hour 27 of fast
6-Aug 8:19:00AM 7.2 0.8 9 Hour 35 of fast - got 4.5 hours of sleep last night, 5.5 the night before - not enough
6-Aug 9:39:00AM 7.0 0.7 10
6-Aug 11:19:00AM 6.7 1.3 5.153846154
6-Aug 1:19:00PM 6.3 0.9 7
6-Aug 2:39:00PM 5.8 1.2 4.833333333
6-Aug 4:19:00PM 5.2 1.1 4.727272727
6-Aug 5:29:00PM 5.1 0.9 5.666666667
6-Aug 6:59:00PM 4.9 0.9 5.444444444
6-Aug 8:29:00PM 4.8 0.9 5.333333333
6-Aug 10:49:00PM 5.1 0.8 6.375 Hour 49 of fast
7-Aug 7:49:00AM 5.9 1.8 3.277777778 152.4 Hour 58 of fast
7-Aug 12:49:00PM 5.6 1.5 3.733333333 Hour 63 of fast
7-Aug 11:49:00PM 3.9 2 1.95 Hour 74 of fast
8-Aug 8:09:00AM 4.8 1.9 2.526315789 151.4 Hour 83 of fast
8-Aug 10:29:00PM 4.0 3.1 1.290322581 153.4 Hour 97 of fast
9-Aug 8:39:00AM 4.1 3.8 1.078947368 150 Hour 107 of fast
9-Aug 12:39:00PM 4.1 3.6 1.138888889 Hour 111 of fast
9-Aug 10:19:00PM 3.7 3.6 1.027777778 Hour 121 of fast

(Michael) #24

Good morning (update)

Had another small diarrhea this morning. Still have not gotten GKI below one, but getting there as my bHB is finally getting above 4, so should certainly be by later today. Did not get the best sleep, but enough (still hoping to grab a nap a bit later to make up an hour or so). Feel good so far this morning though. Here is my latest row.

Date Time Glucose bHB GKI Weight (in pounds)
10-Aug 9:39:00AM 4.8 4.4 1.09 149.2 Hour 132 of fast Small bout of diarrhea

(Michael) #25

Hour 155. More diarrhea this morning (day 7). Will it ever end?!?

I took a few minutes and created a graph with my updated levels. Got a GKI of one last night, and this morning my glucose was too high. So over the past 3 days I have made 7 measurements with a GKI between 1.0 and 1.3. My body is against therapeutic autophagy it seems! I am sure over the day I will get there and then tonight. Here is a chart which I hope works for everyone - relatively new to me to make charts from excel data:

(Jane) #26

According to the charts I have seen a GKI level between 1-3 is considered a high therapeutic level. I don’t have the source for my graph since I took a screen shot several years ago, but the description of the 1-3 level is: “For those using keto therapeutically for the treatment of diseases such as cancer, epilepsy, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, traumatic brain injury and chronic Inflammatory disease”

Less than 1 says “very difficult to achieve without doctor’s supervision”

So I think your expectations may be a bit high and you are actually achieving the autophagy you are looking for.

(Jane) #27

You would think at some point you would be “cleaned out”!

Sorry for the bathroom issues - very annoying.

Better to get some out of the way each morning than experience it all at once like some do when they re-feed after a long fast.

Before COVID when I travelled a lot for my job I would do 72-hr fasts and always broke them the Thu night before where I was in my hotel room and close to the bathroom. I definitely did not want to experience issues in a rent car stuck in Chicago highway bumper-to-bumper or on a flight with the seatbelt sign on!

I only had it happen a couple of times out of a lot of fasts and never could correlate it to what I ate to break it or how I broke it. Just happens sometimes.

(Jane) #28

(Michael) #29

Hi Jane,

Yes of course, you are correct. I should have added in the words, highest therapeutic autophagy. I think since I am not, probably I would have left out the doctor’s supervision addendum to that one :slight_smile:

As you may have guessed already, I am bit of a type A personality. If I am going to do something, I tend to go all out. Usually a good trait, but of course, not always. I did achieve my expectations today however, and probably will remain until I refeed.

(Michael) #30

Hour 168 into fast:

Weight 146.8 this morning, and 147.6 tonight. Finally hit GKI less than one, probably earlier today, but with my measurements, after a full 7 days. Based on others, a good day or two behind. Best assumption is higher glucose due to insulin resistance resulting in glucose keeping me out of this range longer.
While I have read a lot about people having more energy when fasting, that is not the case for me. I am ok if I get a full nights sleep. If I am short an hour of sleep, the fatigue is amplified for me (probably by like 2 or 3 times more fatigued). Even with a full sleep earlier this week, after spending 3 hours outside in the hot sun laying brick, I was shot for the rest of the day for energy. Maybe not the easiest task, but I did 5 hours before fasting working at twice the speed and never got tired, so comparatively I am finding my energy levels to be quite low. I have wanted to do more physical activity, including working out some, but I just can’t seem to get the energy to do it.
I also read that my hunger would go away around day 4. I was most hungry on day 5 I think. Today seemed a little better than day 6 which maybe was a bit better than day 5. But I am still dang hungry. As mentioned, I do a lot of cooking for others which probably makes it worse, but still. I modified the graph and removed two points so the scale works better visually.

(Jane) #31

Good deal!

I’ve been at keto for 3 1/2 years and didn’t try to fast the first 9 months.

My best ever numbers were on the last day of a 72 hr fast in late Jan 2019. My glucose was 52 and my ketones were 7.6, giving me a GKI of 0.38. Never achieved that before or since but I took pictures of the readings I was so blown away.

You are doing great. Being tired and a bit hungry is ok but please don’t push yourself beyond that just to meet a goal you set for yourself. My belief (no science to back it up) that if you push past where you know you should stop but too stubborn you can do more damage than the autophagy is helping.

You can always refeed and start another fast later.

(Michael) #32

Hi Jane,

3 days with GKI of 0.38 - wowzers. And fat adapted none the less and hitting 7.6 after just a few days, that seems crazy. Would it be safe to assume you do not have diabetes?

I have already made my bone broth and have portions sitting ready to eat in the freezer. I drive multiple times a day as well, so I am quite willing to break my fast if needed if I was at all concerned about my safety - I will. I am not faint or dizzy or even grumpy at all, just not really enjoying this long fast a lot (tired too often and hungry). My work productivity has certainly taken a hit as well, but I can make it up when I am eating (no need to push myself too much right now - work will be fine).

Thanks for concern and responses.

(Michael) #33

Hi Paul,

I just did about one hour of research (so again, hardly enough to make me a full fledged expert), but here is what I found to answer your questions, and then I will make comments of my own.

By what possible mechanism could thiamine levels influence diabetes, or vice versa? It looks like there is a vicious cycle whereby decreased thiamine leads to increased insulin resistance and decreased insulin production in the pancreas. Which after a while produces more thiamine excretion and the problem gets progressively worse.

Do diabetics have better glucose control if they receive thiamine supplements?
Yes they do, and noticeably so. But only if they are given way more than normal (like 5 mg a day to supplement). (had good link in NHI but lost it)

And what effect does thiamine supplementation have on their level of insulin resistance?
Thiamine supplementation increases insulin secretion by the pancreas and uptake of glucose, thereby decreasing insulin resistance. (see first link)

Diabetics need thiamine just as much as everyone else - but ketogenic may not as much. One of the major reasons for thiamine is the digestion of glucose. People on zero carbs may require much less, but still some as thiamine is also important for the absorption of glucose by the brain (which is still about 20% of brain energy even in zero carb environment) in addition to the previous insulin secretion and absorption issues.

Now my follow up comments.

  1. Thiamine is vital to our bodies regardless of metabolic state
  2. You are totally safe to take extra thiamine (no damage caused by excess thiamine, it is just excreted in the urine). So one may ask, why NOT supplement thiamine?
  3. The body stores about 25-30 mg of thiamine in the bones and organs. I could not confirm standard daily usage (probably depends a LOT on carb ingestion), but if we just use the idea that the body should get 1.2 mg a day. That leaves a storage of (at worst case) 21 days before our body would totally run out of thiamine (I am sure it is much longer, but there is a worst case scenario starting point).
  4. If I am not ingesting thiamine for 14 days, I could be running low in my stores, thereby (temporarily) affecting both my insulin resistance and damaging my pancreas. Again, since it is safe to over-supplement, I think it would be smarter to do that than not supplement.

I just received tricalcium phosphate in the mail (yah!). And I am expecting a few more deliveries including a package with thiamine (50 g bag of powder scheduled to arrive on day 13 of my 14 day fast). I plan (now that I have done more research) to ingest 5 mg of thiamine when it arrives and everyday until I am eating normally again. This can only help (cannot hurt) and if it was not needed I will never know. Since I am not ingesting many carbs when eating, I do not expect to have to supplement at that time.

(Old Baconian) #34

Now, in that context, it all makes sense. Thanks for the info, and especially for the links.

(Jane) #35

I have never had diabetes but was on the road being overweight and insulin-resistant. As in …weighed 50 lbs more than my husband, ate less and did more activity than him. Talk about not fair!!! But I was following the low fat, high carb eat-6-small-meals-a-day because that’s what the dieticians told us. Load of crap. My insulin was raised all day long. OTOH, since my husband wasn’t trying to lose weight he ate a farily high fat diet, medium carb but only ate 2-3 times a day.

Now I weigh less than him (not by much), still eat less and about the same activity. Thanks to keto.

(Michael) #36

Update: Hour 192.

Started today with, you guessed it, one medium bout of diarrhea. Weight was 146.6 this morning afterwards. I am glad to say I had more energy today and a little less hunger. So today was overall good. I got a good amount of work done and caught up somewhat for the past few days of slacking. I am hungry as I write this, but not too horrible. In terms of sleep, I have for the past two nights, and will again until done the fast, decided that I will stay in bed for 8 hours, no matter what. So I took an hour to fall asleep and woke up an hour before I got up, but I stayed in bed and I think fell back to sleep for a bit even. Two nights in a row of forced bedtime seems to be helping.
Tried a large glass of water with the tricalcium phosphate. It is a powdery substance like baking powder. I measured out a gram and it was a whole teaspoon or so. One gram of it should contain about 400 mg of calcium and 180 mg of phosphorous. Just because I was inexperienced, I then put half back because it just looked like too much to be one gram! It had very little taste and I would say it even tasted slightly good. I then added in salt. I think I will add them separately in general, because the two just did not taste quite right :).
My GKI was barely under one tonight. My bHB fell back to 4.2, which after hitting 5.2 earlier, I would have expected a higher result this evening. Thankfully my glucose is also quite low, so still in the correct range, I will take it! Here is my updated graph today:

(Michael) #37

Update - Hour 218

Weight the morning before my normal diarrhea was 145.8, and was down to 145.0 after going to the washroom. Seems crazy in many ways to me.

Morning started great for GKI with my lowest so far, only to be disappointed with a GKI of 1.05 tonight. Despite running a full day checking my bHB on day 2, it looks like my bHB starts much higher than it ends over the past few days at least. Now that I am starting day 10 and still struggling to get my GKI under one, it just shows how damaged my metabolism is.

I felt pretty good today (was tired in the morning but better overall) and finally finished laying the driveway (top half, going to re-do the bottom half next).Still hungry, although not quite as intense hunger as the previous 4 days or so. Still, cannot say I am enjoying this experience, but I do think there will be positive results in the end.

(Jane) #38

Don’t be so hard on yourself! Disappointed in a GKI of 1.05???

You DO realize the accuracy of those home meters is +/- 10% don’t you? That 0.05 you are so concerned about is meaningless.

(Michael) #39

Oh yah, I know. I think it was just I was expecting a larger bump in ketones, so that was what was kind of disappointing. Absolutely, a GKI of 1.05 or 0.95 are essentially the same. As you will note in my update, 0.71 (tonight’s) however, might be a large enough difference to make, a very small difference :slight_smile:

(Michael) #40

Woke up to the same weight this morning as yesterday 145 pounds, and of course, even on day 10 had a bout of diarrhea. I actually think it might be running out though - maybe? I have already started thinking about how to put some weight back on after this fast. Will probably post in another section for some tips.
In terms of today, readings were excellent. Glucose was very high in the morning due to morning exercise just before the reading (did not have time to let it come down as I had to go out for hours), so while it seemed quite high, I am sure if fell again quickly. Tonight’s were the best ratio I have gotten, so I feel good about that as it was the first time my bHB was over 5 at night when my glucose is always under 5 (unless I just exercised).
Having said this, I felt both tired and still feeling quite hungry. Not my best day, and I am struggling again after a pretty good day yesterday.
I will say, I find it funny that I have been having a recurring dream. Whatever I cook for the family, that night I have a dream where I “forget” I am fasting and put the food I am preparing in my mouth, and after swallowing realize I just ruined my fast. Same dream (except the food is whatever I cooked earlier) for past 3 nights. Where’s Freud?
94 hours until my goal, I give myself a 50/50 shot at making it to the end. Not sure if I would bet on myself, but we shall see. Here is my updated chart