Assumptions about Dayspring based off the Attia / Feldman Podcast

attia
(Randy) #5

It’s hard to keep an open mind when Attia is so condescending.

(Karen Parrott) #6

I’m happy to help Dave get to a lipid meeting ( by donating a small amount) to learn more and talk more to the scientists. I learned lippidology in 1987-88 in a medical setting from a teacher who learned lippidology from the Cleaveland clinic. Even then, without knowing geneotyping of FH, it was complex and mind blowing. I’m a Medical Technlogist in real life, in my 31st year.

Disagreement is okay with me. Both Dr Attia and Dave bring a lot to the table. I’m a LMHR, BTW. I see cross functional learning as key in this case. The doc sees many patients, Dave meets many hyper responders. Progress is being made in that Dave is bringing us together.

It’s an interesting time and place to be. Looking forward to more key learning from both.

(KCKO, KCFO) #7

When I went looking for info on Dayspring, I found this one and stopped looking, he is with Gary Taubes. It isn’t about lipids, but it is about fats and why they are not bad for us. Love they mention the wonderful SiFi movie, Fantastic Voyage.

(Todd Allen) #8

I keep in mind he is a doctor. Considering his profession, his condescension to knowledge ratio strikes me as quite good.

(What The Fast?!) #9

Me too, but minus the lean part. My LDL (both C and P) are insanely high - higher than those discussed on the podcast - but everything else is great. After listening to the show, I’ll admit - I’m concerned. I have been moving more toward fish and unsaturated fats, but I don’t know if that’s the right path.

Since you’re a LMHR, do you worry about LDL and if so, are you modifying keto at all to account for that?

(Todd Allen) #10

Since the Attia/Feldman podcast Peter has posted a 5 part series of podcasts with Dayspring. As someone who has had significant changes in my lipid panels eating keto this series has helped me better understand the good (not hdl), the bad (not ldl) and the ugly (not triglycerides).

https://peterattiamd.com/podcast/

High cholesterol and triglycerides
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

I hold Dr. Attia in great affection, mind, and you are right about his condescension to knowledge ratio. Nevertheless . . . there is a joke about St. Peter getting Sigmund Freud’s spirit to psychoanalyze God, who’s been acting very strangely. Dr. Freud comes out of the room after several days and says, “It’s a very serious case—He thinks He’s a doctor!” :grin:

#12

What did you mean when you said, “unfortunately, they pulled the paper”? I just downloaded it by following that link.

My frustration with the discussion between Attia and Dayspring is that it feels like they’re being coy. BOTH of them were strong LCHF advocates just a few years ago, and now Attia refers to “precious low carb diets” and Dayspring makes ominous-sounding comments about those people losing weight but not paying attention to their lipids.

And what did Attia’s nutritionist advise Dayspring to eat on his fasting days to lose all his weight? Attia said in an interview with Tim Ferris that he would post his keto-friendly adaptation of Longo;s fasting mimicking diet food, but never did. I emailed him and asked for it and never got a reply.

I downloaded and printed out the entire transcripts of the Attia/Dayspring and Attia/Feldman conversations and am going through them with a highlighter, trying to get clear about just what we need to be concerned about, but I’m not getting very far.

If you listen to Ivor Cummins and Malcolm Kendrick, there is nothing to be concerned about on keto, but I have to admit Dayspring has me wondering. I haven’t had a lipid panel done since I started keto (again) last January, so I’m going to have that done soon.

I feel really let down by Attia and Dayspring. I printed out Attia’s 9 part cholesterol series as he posted it a few years ago and read through that very carefully, read all his blog posts. Now he seems to have done an about-face with no clear statement why. Dayspring seems to be doing the same.

It leaves me feeling that they don’t know if keto is problematic (even if just for a portion of the population), but they won’t say that.

#13

But that’s just the problem - that video (and the one below, of Dayspring with Gary Taubes) is from a few years ago. Science changes, which is fine, but I want Dayspring and Attia to be clear about what they’re saying. Are they saying that their previous statements were wrong? They won’t say. Instead, they talk around the issue.

(Todd Allen) #14

I think there are still enough gaps in the science that you aren’t going to get definitive statements but my take is Dr. Attia’s current stance is keto is great for about 80% of the population. Of the remaining 20% for maybe half some things get better and some worse and the balance isn’t readily clear. For maybe 10% he sees concerning changes in lipid panels that merit careful investigation to determine what is up. For some of those, not all, the changes in lipids probably accelerate heart disease and it disturbs him that this is being overlooked or ignored by many. For some with a poor response to keto a shift from saturated fats to monounsaturated fats improves their lipid profile. It’s hard to judge when/how best to preventatively treat for heart disease and few doctors do a good job of it.

#15

That’s basically my take, too, but they don’t just SAY that clearly. Because of their public stances in the past, I think they have an obligation to make clear statements about this. They clearly don’t agree with me!

(Todd Allen) #16

No they don’t. I formed that impression in combination with several other podcasts and videos he has done.

There are moments when I am dumbfounded by cursory acknowledgements of grievous problems with medical research, drugs such as statins and their testing protocols, poor alignment between patient interests and the for profit interests of big pharma and the healthcare system, etc. followed by views that strike me as overly confident in the value of pharma and healthcare. Despite that I think Attia is probably a better doc than any I’ve had and I appreciate the info he provides.

(Bob M) #17

How does Attia know this is beneficial? How does he know this won’t CAUSE more disease than he’s trying to prevent? He does not. He simply BELIEVES it does. Therein lies the crux of the problem.

Too bad there is no NUSI to run an RCT to settle this. As it is, we’re all shooting in the dark because there are no RCTs with people who eat low carb, who get “bad” lipid profiles, and then “correct” those profiles using more monounsaturated fat. Until such time as there is an RCT, I personally just ignore my “high” LDL-p.

(Todd Allen) #18

While it is nearly impossible to be certain of anything, he has done this with patients under his care, patients with deep pockets willing to pay for the best care and testing to guide and evaluate that care unconstrained by limitations such as insurance compensation. He has hired staff to help him monitor and interpret relevant medical research and has developed relationships with leading experts with whom he consults on difficult cases. While acknowledging the limitations of medical science that’s about as good as healthcare gets, at least in the US.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #19

Just to clarify, you meant to write “LCHF,” right?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #20

Dr. Phinney says something similar, that perhaps 20% of the population is naturally insulin-sensitive and therefore fine on HCLF. My question would be whether that sensitivity changes over time, because I hit a certain point in my mid- to late-twenties when suddenly I started gaining weight, whereas before, my metabolism could handle any amount of calories and any macro ratio without gaining weight or visible fat. Was I always developing insulin-resistance, or was there a point when something changed, and insulin-resistance began?

(Todd Allen) #21

However, that may not be the same 20% who don’t thrive on keto. Dr. Attia has patients who have improved insulin resistance with keto but at the same time due to abnormalities with lipid metabolism develop new issues like crazy high triglycerides or pathological lipoproteins. Being a crappy sugar burner isn’t a guarantee of being a good fat burner.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #22

Is there any reliable evidence linking lipid numbers to cardiovascular risk? Should we really be as worried as we are? Ravnskov, Kendrick, Diamond, et al. seem to be advocating for clotting abnormalities as the true cause of cardiovascular disease.

#23

Ha! That’s pretty funny that I made that mistake in that post! Yes, I meant LCHF!

(I went back and corrected it.)

#24

Yes, I think you’ve said it perfectly.