As a Grandfather my daughter is worrying me


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #7

@NigelNoFriends There are two concerns here: the first is that growing children need plenty of protein in order to grow properly. I understand that it is possible, if difficult, to get plenty of protein on a vegan diet, but a regular vegetarian diet supplemented with fish and eggs would be better. (A chicken lays eggs most of her life, regardless of whether any are ever fertilized or not. Commercially sold eggs are unfertilized, so there is no question of taking a life, here.)

The other issue is getting enough of the right kind of fat. The brain is mostly fat, and a high percentage of that fat is cholesterol. Plant sterols cannot substitute for cholesterol, which is an animal fat. Cholesterol is essential for the formation of cell walls (this is true of every cell in the body), it is the precursor for important hormones, including testosterone and progesterone, and it is the precursor of vitamin D and many other important chemicals used in the body. Cholesterol also plays a role in the immune system. But the main reason lack of cholesterol affects the brain is that it is essential to the formation of the myelin sheath of neurons, and it plays a role in the transmission of nerve impulses.

The Seventh-Day Adventist reasons for avoiding meat and eating only vegetables are based on the idea that men who eat meat become lustful and sexually out-of-control. I suspect Ellen White may have had some unpleasant experiences as a girl, from which she drew the wrong conclusions. Her position also echoes the neo-Platonist strain that runs through Christian theology (i.e., spirit good, body bad) and ignores the mainstream of Judaeo-Christian thinking (God created the material world and called it good).

The moral argument that eating meat involves the taking of life ignores the killing of the many small mammals whose homes are destroyed when land is tilled. That mono-cropping is an ecological disaster is also well-known, and the soil depletion from cropping requires the use of fertilizer made from fossil fuels, which needs to be considered in the carbon footprint of growing crops.

The inhumanity of the current industrial meat-production practices is undeniable. We definitely need to reform our methods. Along these lines, Alan Savory and Peter Ballerstedt have some very useful points to make. But I see no moral wrong, as long as we treat our animals humanely. We can’t escape the reality that all life lives off other life, but we can at least treat our animal’s sacrifice reverently and with respect.


(Susan) #8

Show her these articles:

Maybe this will smarten her up.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #9

Vege/vegan is a religion not science and evidence-based. At best it’s a pseudo-science cherry picking data that can be construed as supportive. Very difficult to reason someone out of an irrational view.


#10

You’re very welcome Nigel!


#11

Tell her she’s months late to fall for a very well known propaganda piece. There is NO shortage of videos also on YT from former vegans and all their health issues. Honestly, if I were in your shoes I’d wage war with her if she tried to veganize the kids. I’m kinda the extreme out of the gate type though, hopefully your more level headed than me.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #12

Michael, you are spot on !

It doesn’t even matter that veganism is freaking retarded. People are going to believe whatever they want to.


(Ken) #13

The website Beyondveg.com has lot’s of refutation information about veganism, written by former vegans.


(David Jackson) #15

Someone has to produce things. It takes money to make films. This includes documentaries. The roles a person has worn on film bears little weight when filming a different endeavor.

Choose not to endorse the doc. This is fine. But dismissing it for that alone is rather shallow


#16

Well, being that many homes (and preschools) across the land serve koolaid and sodas (incl in bottles and sippy cups) along with sugar/starch snacks, and heavily processed foods - along with a constant diet of corporate created media & marketing (Neil Postman’s 1983 book The Disappearance Of Childhood predicted that expertly) - if we want to talk about “protecting” children, vegans are one group of many.

SAD industrial culture is really sad… fragmented, cut off from ancestral traditions, and full of cognitive dissonance. And while many parents are doing the best they can to nourish their children, there are some very real cultural, religious, and economic differences along with structured ignorance.

There may well be some vegan kids w/ nutritional supplements and abundant coconut oil who like their family foods and have better brain health than some other kids who are routinely already protein-deficient with less fat and with PUFAs and sugar everywhere.

There was a baby in the U.S. headlines last year or the year before whose mother weaned it at 7 or so months onto a hyper-limited “pure” “forest” diet of berries and soaked nuts - and it died of course (as to why she weaned her child onto that, and why she didn’t utilize milk banks or high grade goat milk formula powders to supplement the nuts n’ berries I don’t know).

I’ve known dairy protein-rich vegetarian Indian children who are much more healthy and functional than the average junk food American child, etc. Many vegans eat a TON of processed junk foods - including tofu and soy milk and modern wheat breads. Processed soy often starts with infant formula then is followed in veg/vegan cuisines with tofu and soymilk (unlike tempeh, which is marinated whole bean ) should have a warning label for human consumption due to its enzymatic indigestability for many non North Asians, and also due to its super high phytoestrogens which many children have serious issues with come puberty.

Another part of this topic is the natural tastes of children. Till about age 7 or older, children love the sweeter spices/tastes and hate the spicy/pungent. It’s normal for them to really enjoy fresh fruit and almond or dairy milk, and sweet coconut oil. But even vegan kids reach a point where they want the saltier and spicier, and even the best marinated tempeh can’t match their first taste of good BBQ meat or bacon.

Ideally children would have a range of foods to choose/reject at a meal - including good fats and proteins - and what GRANDPA’s eating and what AUNTIE’s eating, etc etc. A wide variety of tastes and brain development. The problem with certain eating religions or economic circumstances is that range is reduced to “here’s your bologna or velveeta sandwich on white bread” or “here’s your tofu dog on white bread” or “here have some sugary “healthy” gummy bears”.

The lack of actual real foods is a rampant problem throughout the industrial world. Many children’s palates are messed up young by processed foods and constant eating/drinking - and they can’t take pleasure in real foods. Jason Fung MD goes into this in his interview on High Intensity Health when talking about “western” industrial societal injustices and entrainment - how horrified he was when he saw how his son’s preschool was feeding them every two hours and learned it was the licensing law, and that sugar-burning kids are accustomed to it, need it in order to not crash too bad, etc.


(Troy) #17

I agree
Noted
Sarcasm was heavily intended ( w The Joaquin Phoenix connection )
Not dismissing the doc at all

Great actor like I said, looking forward to the movie!:slightly_smiling_face:


(hottie turned hag) #18

Some folks thrive on a vegan diet. Some fare poorly.

NO ONE DIET IS RIGHT FOR ALL
and those who claim the opposite are usually layfolk, or have an agenda, or both.

I state this confidently from a place of having a master’s and near 30yr experience in a med sci field: absolutes do not exist in medicine nor dietary requirements. EVERYTHING is case by case. EVERYthing.

I can also cite an anecdotal example, one of my adult kids. A daughter about to turn 36. LIFELONG (never had meat. Never.) vegetarian, over 7 yr vegan. Had three pregnancies and extended lactations in those 7 almost 8, now, years. Kids all born full term big brutes, 2 were home delivered after short efficient labors. My daughter looks like a fitness model, not joking. Lean, toned, muscular, taut. Does not work out. Energy galore, zero health issues. Her husband is an NP. He DOES work out (weightlifts) and was worried going veg would hurt his workouts. Nope. He’s as built as ever.

Kids and hubby are vegetarian but kids are pretty close to vegan.

Youngest kid is a suckling infant but the 5y/o and 3y/o are excellent specimens: muscular, big for ages, almost never contract communicable illnesses.

Now me? I was vegetarian for 8 yr (animal advocacy reasons) and felt like something helped from her coffin and was thin and listless.

I am certain my daughter is not a freak of nature; there are similar cases, many I am sure.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #19

Great article based on the work of Weston Price DDS.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #20

I’m sorry, but this just does not sound likely to me. I can hardly remember seeing a Vegatarian or Vegan, who I aspired to be built like.

On the other hand, I’ve seen a ton of buff meat eating gorillas that I so wish I had the genetics, and life circumstances to be like… Okay granted, most of them are completely juiced out too. But it takes a lot more than juice… Pretty much all those guys are big time meat eaters. I don’t think it’s just coincidence.


#21

There are vegan bodybuilder dudes, but they don’t proclaim they’re “all natural” and I suspect they are supplementing with steroidals and/or testosterone on top of the, like, 15 different other lab-produced supplements they have to take in order to be a healthy vegan (and how “natural” can that be?).

Then there’s the RAW vegan bodybuilders, who nowadays have a tendency to pose in their underwear which I find tacky - and also take a TON of supplements.

http://www.thefruitdoctor.com/mark-martell-raw-vegan-bodybuilder-yet-another-amazing-transformation/

Martell seems natural - not hyper-bulked. But fact is that there isn’t much of a hyper-bulked type “Natural Vegan” bodybuilder trend - they’re just hyper-bulked liars saying they’re natural imho. …Points to the hidden extravaganza of likely steroidal supplementation/hormone prescriptions under lots of different names, sold in many forms etc.


#22

A lot of these vegan bodybuilders did the majority of their bulking on omnivorous diets before switching to veganism. That they may be able to maintain that level of muscle eating vegan is something I suppose but if it’s thanks to steroids then it’s hardly healthy.

I think veganism does suit some people but it requires a level of effort & understanding that many simply don’t put in. Those that do make the effort & are genetically suited can thrive. Having said that, I certainly don’t think it’s a healthy diet for growing children.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #23

But those guys are just not that buff. Ripped, yes. But not super muscled.


(hottie turned hag) #24

Yeah, this does describe son in law. He’s NOT massive but never wanted to be. I’m not up on weightlifting terms so prob using wrong descriptors.

He looks like…an early 2000s Abercrombie ad? Or early Calvin Klein? Lean, no fat, very defined muscle but not bulky-ish? He’s Hungarian (as in from Hungary, came to USA at 18), 6’ tall and weighs maybe…180? When relaxed hanging by his sides his arms look muscular with definition. #hawt

So yeah, not big. He’s pretty vain though and worried he’d lose definition or mass on veg, but he looks exactly the same (after 8-ish years).

Being an NP (and my daughter was a paramedic before marrying) he’s got a trad med mindset; he’s totally down with the diet for himself and kids. He does insist daughter give kids some cheese and eggs which they do get but not more than 3X/week I’d say.


(hottie turned hag) #25

Agree with the first part big time! I too have known wraithlike vegeTARIAN kids who look stunted and in poor condition, these were of uneducated hippie Mothers.

My daughter is too perfectionistic to not do vegan “properly”. She feeds those kids a WIDE array, and is aware of the nutritional value of all they get. Almost nothing is processed and they get ZERO sugar/junk (aside from sugar in the tons of fruit they eat).
Trust me these kids look like shining examples of blooming health and act so too. And I’m so not a biased “grandma” type, I assess them as a scientist.

In fairness I shall state that your comment re: genetics in play is so valid!
My degree is IN medical genetics.

In my line the females are usually muscular even though sedentary; we don’t get stretch marks even being multips, nor facial wrinkles as we age (indicating strong connective tissue) have big strong calves and taut abdomens. My Mother, myself and two of my three daughters (and my son, also vegetarian though his wife and son are not) all have remarkable -esp for folk who don’t work out- muscle tone. I now being an old hag do have flab galore atop the muscle, ew.

The fourth kid -female- has lousy tone and has since an infant. Looks soft and mushy.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #26

Hey Blue Violet, these are the guys I was talking about… ALL the guys that look like this, eat a TON of meat, and do a ton of steroids. About 99% of women think this is hideous, and probably 90% of guys say they wouldn’t want to look like this either. I always wished I could… Or should I say, that I had the right genetics, food, life circumstances, drug dealer, etc :slight_smile: lol
Zack King Kahn
https://images.app.goo.gl/a1s8GXDsJDyRDpiz5

My favorite, Rich Piana RIP (who freely talked about his steroid use, and told peoople it was a bad idea)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwishfvZx4DlAhWTvJ4KHY-tDAsQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=%2Furl%3Fsa%3Di%26source%3Dimages%26cd%3D%26ved%3D%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Ftitle%2Ftt8196906%2Fmediaviewer%2Frm1519142912%26psig%3DAOvVaw3-fmnlbXPx8gDPU0G5_M7l%26ust%3D1570207803200228&psig=AOvVaw3-fmnlbXPx8gDPU0G5_M7l&ust=1570207803200228

Ronnie Coleman… Always wondered how a police officer could get by with using steroids ? Still alive, but beat his body to pieces.

Long story short, NEVER will you see guys like this, that are vegetarian.


(hottie turned hag) #27

Yes I agree. To build muscle mass of that degree one needs animal protein I would guess, and lots of it.

Health wise though, daughter and fam are kickass, for real. That was my real point, and to emphasize the truism everything is case by case.

I’ve posted before of my good buddy, guy aged 56, 5’10" or 11", prob…140-ish? Skinny as a rail, wiry, looks icky, build wise BUT…

- is an extreme hiker (flies all over the world -New Zealand, most recently- to do extreme hikes)
- builds his own houses (5) and does big renos (too many to count)
- rebuilds classic cars (hobby, he is a programmer by trade)
- excellent health (is a hypochondriac so sees doc regularly)
- is hyperactive (diagnosed ADHD, severe)
- is scary strong. I’ve seen him lift heavy ass car parts, tree trunks, building materials, he has moved me twice (as a favor) and carried multiple boxes of hardcover heavy textbooks with ease etc etc

whose diet consists and has his entire adult life, of processed high sugar foods, pop, chocolate, ice cream, candy, a burger once in awhile, maybe a few chicken nuggets. I have witnessed him eat an entire 1 POUND bag of M&Ms mindlessly while programming in a zone.

He IS a freak of nature, a mutant! His doc tells him “somehow it’s working for you”.

Unlike my daughter’s case I think there are very few of these types, though he surely cannot be the only one!