Currently I’m using a ketonix breath meter to measure my ketones. I have also used ketostix but stopped a few days ago when they stopped being effective. I also have a blood meter but due to the high cost of ketone strips I don’t use it often. The ketonix says that nutritional ketosis is between 4ppm and 30ppm. The yellow range (deep ketosis) is 30ppm to 80ppm. The red is 80ppm and higher. I’m wondering if there are any advantages or disadvantages to being in the 30-80 range? For several weeks I was averaging around 20-25ppm then I fasted for 7 days and my ketones when up to 65ppm. Several days after my fast I’m still in the 55-60 range. Is this a good place to be? Should I try and get my ketones down to the nutritional ketone range? Does it even matter as long as I keep myself out of the red?
Are there benefits to having more ketones?
Where ketones are concerned, more is not generally better once you are fat-adapted. The idea is that the ketones we measure are ketones not being used by the body, and as the body gets more efficient at using them, the measurement may actually drop.
Dr. Phinney mentions a study he and Jeff Volek did, in which the fat-adapted athletes they were studying had barely detectable levels of β-hydroxybutyrtate in ltheir blood, but they were clearly fat adapted, according various other measurements.
I never get a reading higher than 0.4mmol and I am entirely fat adapted. That is using a blood meter. If I use ketostix, I only ever get a trace reading, because my body is adapted to using ketones.
What I’m trying to find out is if there are any advantages or disadvantages to higher ketone levels. I feel the same now with ketones at 60ppm as I did when they were only 25ppm. From what I’ve read on this forum it doesn’t sound like there are any major advantages to ketones being elevated above nutritional ketosis unless you are trying to treat cancer or epilepsy. What I haven’t found is any info on is whether or not there is a downside to high ketone levels. If there is then I might increase my carb intake to get them down to the range of nutritional ketosis.
It’s more a matter of if you’re producing them or not, as if you are, you’re in Lipolysis. They’re just a secondary energy source, a replacement for dietary carbohydrate. Gluconeogenesis is occurring at the same time, and I’m not aware of any methodology that exists to tell what amounts of ketones you’re burning vs. gluconeogenic glucose. Your body decides. I don’t think ingesting carbs to manipulate ketone levels is a good idea, as the suspend lipolysis in small amounts, and can take you back to chronic lipogenesis when they become a chronic pattern. Manipulation of the fat and protein macros would be a better choice.
@240lbfatloss Is there any reason to reduce my ketones? I trying to figure out if there is a downside to high ketone levels.
Not really, but they do represent available calories. If you’re meeting your body composition goals I wouldn’t be concerned with a specific level. People who restrict calories on a CKD or TKD typically show very low ketones depending on the time of day.
I use both a Keto Mojo and a Ketonix. Been fat adapted at least 18 months now. i have noticed my Ketonix readings dropping over the months. When I used to regularly get in the 80 PPM range and anywhere between 1 & 7.0 mmol BHB (fasted >3 days) I now was only getting between 4 & 15 PPM. I questioned Ketonix about this. They replied
"To have lower breath acetone readings after being in ketosis for a “long time” is logical. Your body has adapted to use fat as fuel and the consumers of ketones will mainly be your brain and heart. To increase breath ketones (breaking down fat) you need to use tricks as intermittent fasting and exercise.
Do not expect to increase your breath ketones to skyhigh levels just because you have been on a ketogenic diet for a long time. The better your cells adapted to use fat direct, the less need for making them in the liver. The intra-muscular fat storage will also improve over time.
Using a KETONIX® device and measuring a lot can educate you in how your body works and what triggers your body to use fat as fuel. As your body adapts to your lifestyle, you might need to monitor this and be creative with your lifestyle. What worked 6 months ago might not work now …"
As I am also an engineer I asked if there was a device available to calibrate the Ketonix using an acetone pressurized canister. At this point we have begun working on calibrating and doing diagnostics on my Ketonix which I am currently still doing.
Hope this all helps you @corduroyew
The downside would be in blood glucose was also high. This is why I also use a glucose ketone index (GKI) in both blood and breath.
BHB GKI 6-22-2018.pdf (66.4 KB)
Lipolysis drives Ketosis. Ketosis does not drive Lipolysis. The key is understanding Lipolysis, and the minor role Ketosis plays in it.