Are carnivores happy? And the importance of fibre

fibre
#44

Active ketosis is measurable ketosis, even if it is just a trace of blood ketones. I never thought one could be in ketosis without a ketone being measured. For example, a carnivore plan eater that has a blood ketone result of 0 mmol/L, which is plausible. There is a difference, I would acquiesce, between ketosis and eating a ketogenic diet. In the physiology it is quite possible to generate physiological insulin resistance when eating zero carb carnivore, especially over longer duration that will result either in persistent higher blood glucose, or increased insulin production in response, both of which would shut down ketone production in the liver. That would make a carnivore WOE not necessarily ketogenic.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon with Dr. Paul Saladino discuss why the carnivore dietary approach may not necessarily be ketogenic.

#45

That possibly answers something I was wondering about. That being whether gut manufactured serotonin affecting brain levels. I do need to investigate it more. Sorry Paul, I do trust you. I just need information triangulation. I just heard a nutrition professor mention the production of gut serotonin and it’s influence on psychological disorders. That suggests, in my thinking, that the gut serotonin does influence the brain. There’s also a niggle idea that I have that gut serotonin produced in response to eating something potentially toxic is the main hormonal trigger in the chemoreceptor trigger zone in the brain and induces vomiting. How did it get in there?

#46

Dietary fiber intervention, particularly involving fructans and galacto-oligosaccharides, leads to higher fecal abundance of Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus spp. but does not affect α-diversity

Those two were the GABA producers. The serotonin producers aren’t specified. So it is interesting to note in that meta analysis that added fibre may not impact on serotonin production as indicated by the microbes listed in the original video.

(Edith) #47

Maybe gut serotonin affects the brain indirectly. If more serotonin is produced by the gut, more tryptophan is spared for use in the brain.

#48

Carnivores appear to be happy.

You guys can’t see it but this was a labyrinth of fibrous rabbit holes to go down. Looking to see the connection between gut biome, feeding the gut biome fibre (or not), and the production of brain neurotransmitters. All along a path to feeling happy.

I still have not solved it to my satisfaction. But have very much enjoyed the inputs and suggestions, and looking into new sources of information.

Currently I am listening to this podcast (Dr. Saladino) and getting plenty of information.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #49

Sorry, but I don’t see how it’s particularly plausible, unless there’s a serious problem. If you aren’t eating carbohydrate, the liver has to be making glucose (the small amount necessary) and ketones, or the brain would starve, surely. What am I missing?

“Physiological insulin resistance” merely refers to the muscles’ passing up glucose and ketones, to save them for the organs that truly need them or can benefit from them (the muscles prefer fatty acids over ketones, the way a wood stove prefers wood over charcoal). I prefer the term “adaptative glucose sparing,” because it makes the point more clearly.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #50

My source for this is The Hacking of the American Mind, by Robert Lustig, M.D.

#51

That may be the case Paul. Maybe not a serious problem, but a change in physiology related to a stress response, for example. The carnivore diet can result in higher cortisol. That drops the level of nutritional ketosis. So a person eating ketogenic standard with moderated protein and some vegetables may be achieving blood ketone levels of > 0.5mmol/L. That was the nutritional ketosis benchmark set by Dr. Phinney. Has that changed? Maybe it is 0.4mmol/L these days?

With a carnivore dietary approach and cortisol affecting gluconeogenisis that measurable blood ketone number can drop to a trace 0.1mmol/L or 0, despite the very low carbohydrate intake despite low circulating insulin. Higher blood glucose is provided by demand driven GNG and fatty acids (free and those delivered by LDL) are used as fuel by muscles. Other factors like sleep pattern changes and work stress are additional confounders.

I mention the physiological insulin resistance from n=1 observed experiments where fasting blood glucose was higher on the carnivore approach (1).

These aspects conflated can conspire to make a carnivore diet not necessarily a ketogenic diet, as there are factors that can work against keto(ne)genesis.

The other factor I wonder about is if a person has low body fat and is not eating a high fat carnivore diet (3). That may also result in no ketones but higher demand driven gluconeogenisis. My athletic days have passed, I think, so I’m not testing that version.

On keto, there’s also a large emphasis placed on fat. Protein is usually kept under 40% of total calories to prevent gluconeogenesis from knocking you out of ketosis. The carnivore diet encourages high protein and high fat intake as long as you’re getting these calories from animal sources…Unlike keto, there’s no general macronutrient percentage to follow when eating a carnivore diet.(2)

  1. https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/fasting-blood-glucose-higher

  2. https://www.carbmanager.com/article/what-is-the-carnivore-diet

  3. Three years ago some great minds were discussing the reduced blood ketone measurement on the carnivore diet: Confusing results zero carb

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #52

My bet is this. The more efficiently fat adapted one is, the better synchronized are ketogenesis and gluconeogenesis with actual demand for ketones and glucose by the brain and the several other cells that require glucose. Consequently, measurable ketones (those not being used) would remain low and any cortisol induced ‘dawn phenomenon’ elevating glucose and insulin would be pretty much minimal, maybe unnoticeable, on a CGM plot. This because if all your cells are already getting what they need either as fatty acids, ketones or glucose, there is no need to jump start anything or ramp up synthesis, just press the pedal a little to get moving from stop.

It sure would be handy to have a home insulin measuring device. If I’m essentially correct above, that would mean we could used glucose/insulin as a measure of degree of fat adaptation. If you’re measuring anything more than very minimal glucose/insulin fluctuation, it indicates the presence of metabolic ill-adaptation. If you’re measuring more than minimal ketones it indicates mismatch of synthesis to demand. Thus not fully adapted. This is not to say there would be no range of values, just that the range would be small.

I also think triglycerides in the blood are also an indication not only of metabolic disfunction but also of fat non-adaptation. If one were metabolically healthy and fat-adapted those triglycerides would not be floating around doing nothing but getting into trouble.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #53

Not likely any time soon, alas! Though a friend of mine is supposed to be working on one. (Don’t know if he ever found the time, however.)

I believe part of the problem is that the standard test is a radioassay, so I imagine there might be disposal problems where home measurement is concerned.

#54

sorry FB I got the context mixed up in what I was thinking…they are referring directly to ‘the ketogenic diet plan’ and ‘striving for active ketosis numbers’ and of course carnivore/zc can easily be non-ketogenic in that text. But everyone on keto plan or zc are burning ketones if you are severely limited plant intake or 0 plant intake…but I put it in other terms and, well, nevermind HAHA

(Susan) #55

I can’t comment on the biome, but animals make structure (bones, hair, skin, all connective tissue) out of protein. When eaten, it gets digested into it’s individual amino acids in the stomach and intestines before being absorbed.

Plants make their structure (grass standing up, wood, etc) out of glucose. The magic of plants is they can make high energy carbons (glucose) using sunlight. They put the glucose together in 2 different ways. Amylose, a.k.a. plant starch that we can digest into glucose and use the energy, and cellulose. We can’t digest cellulose so it stays in the gut and isn’t absorbed into the blood stream. That’s the fiber.

Therefore, whatever animal connective tissue you eat (and we do eat a lot of it) won’t add anything to the fiber we’re talking about.

#56

Thanks Susan. That is a clear reply and explanation. Much appreciated.

Further, I just heard in a podcast discussion with a research scientist that whereas cellulose fibre feeds intestinal bacteria that create short chain fatty acids (butyrate), when a person eats protein based foods, including connective tissue, there are other gut flora that use those amino acids to create iso-butyrate. So, once again there are multiple paths to getting a biological result and that results in food adaptability in the macro-organism, the human. Biology is amazing.

(Susan) #57

You’re right about biology being endlessly fascinating. The more you dive in to it, the more there is to dive! I’d be interested to know which amino acid the isobutyrate is being made from. If it’s a common one, then almost any protein would suffice, not just animal protein. We are, however, carnivores, all of our protein will have all of the amino acids.

The ‘iso’ in isobutyrate means that it has the exact same number and kinds of atoms, but that it has a different shape. Shape is everything in biochemistry. Different shape, different actions. One of the mints and caraway seeds have almost identical flavor molecules, but for one slight shape change, giving you the very different tastes. Any mechanic will tell you shape matters for everything. Isobutyrate MAY have the same actions in the body, but likely not. I have no idea which.

(Elizabeth ) #58
(Bob M) #59

That is a good line. Alas, 'twas not me.

(Bob M) #60

Not sure this is true. I’ve been low carb/keto for almost 7 years and still get dawn phenomenon. My ketones are low (as in, really low) at that time, but get higher in the evening. The opposite happens with blood sugar.

I’m definitely fat adapted. Here’s an illustration of that:

image
image.png382×505 69.6 KB

Could I be unusual? Sure. But, we’d need more data from people like me – stupid enough to spend thousands of dollars getting the data, for a long time.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #61

To be clear, my contention is that in the physiological state of metabolic health, one could expect only slight variations around a mean value in concentrations of hormones, ketones, blood sugars, etc as regulation of various inputs/outputs are synchronized fully. And consequently, we could potentially use the degree of variability as a marker of extent of disfunction yet to be fixed. I agree also that there’s likely a range of individual variability and potentially genetic variability. Thus, in a ‘normal’ and ‘healthy’ state of metabolic health, all the various daily plots would be close to straight or slightly wavey lines and variations beyond some ‘normal range’ would be indicative of disfunction or nonsychronization. This does not rule out ‘special events’ like if you unexpectedly come upon a bear in the woods and run like hell. The better your overall metabolic health, the more likely you are to get away to walk another day. Yes, I could be wrong. But I think it’s a useful hypothesis that might be tested.

(Elizabeth ) #62

I only have lab tests every 6 months, but after 2 years strict keto and 2 and 1/2 carnivore back in the spring, my fasting glucose was 103 HBA1C at 5.7. for most of the last 10 years it’s been 5.5. No idea of ketones I don’t measure. My doctor said I have slightly elevated volume red blood cells and that they are living longer because of the way I eat so the extra glycation does not concern her at all. My CPeptide’s at 1.08🤷‍♀️