Are carnivores happy? And the importance of fibre

fibre

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #22

So far as I know, yes. There are essential amino acids, which are the ones I listed in my post, and there are “conditionally essential” amino acids, which are either not necessary under the right conditions or can be made, again under the right conditions. And then there are the rest of the amino acids that the body uses but can make for itself. Some of those convert more easily into glucose, others convert more easily into fatty acids, and still others can easily be converted into either. Or so I understand. There are a number of sites on Teh Interwebz with reliable information about human biology.

P.S.—I see that @CFLBob has beaten me to the punch. Although I wouldn’t rely on Wikipedia for accuracy, having run into bias and misinformation in a field where I am something of an expert, the information Bob quotes is accurate, to the best of my knowledge.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

That’s easy. Dietary carbohydrate is completely unnecessary, because the liver can make all the glucose the body needs, and the brain needs significantly less glucose when ketone bodies are available. There is no known carbohydrate deficiency disease.

Plant antioxidants are unnecessary on a well-formulated ketogenic diet, because the three ketone bodies (acetoacetate, acetone, and β-hydroxybutyrate) all have epigenetic effects, and one of the effects of β-hydroxybutyrate is to turn off the genes, activated by the high serum insulin resulting from a high-carbohydrate diet, that deactivate the body’s endogenous defenses against oxidative stress (so turning off the genes reactivates the endogenous defenses), thus making dietary antioxidants unnecessary.

Fibre is also unnecessary on a ketogenic diet, because, while our gut bacteria digest it and turn it into butyrate, which is good for the colon, β-hydroxybutyrate is even better for the colon.


#24

You’d need to eat a lot of carbs to raise serotonin levels via this route and you’d be stuck in the loop of carb addiction.

Regarding Dr. Zoe Harcombe. I like what she said for the most part but there is more complex issues such as consuming unripe fruits and vegetables which contain antinutrients. Then there’s the issue of conventional pesticides affecting the gut microbiome and our own nervous system. I disagree with her regarding her consumption of fibrous plants such as kale and flaxseed because there was no fibrous plants for sale in stores when I lived in Italy and flaxseed is banned for human consumption in France. Italians mostly eat tender greens they can easily chew raw. Such as different lettuces and my favorite… cicoria spadona.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #26

As the saying goes, “We are each entitled to our own opinion, but we are not entitled to our own facts.”

Since the Wikipedia article you quote discusses tryptophan as a precursor to niacin (it is also a precursor to serotonin, BTW), and not the synthesis of tryptophan in the body (instead, it refers to tryptophan as an essential amino acid, which by definition means the body cannot make it), and since your second article discusses neither tryptophan nor essential amino acids, I don’t see how they bolster your claim that tryptophan is not an essential amino acid.


(Elizabeth ) #28

There might be some interesting stuff to glean out of this https://www.mostly-fat.com/empirica/2019/05/high-fiber-diet-might-a-translation/


#29

This is a great resource. Clostridial overgrowth does have its problems. It’s interesting in Vancomycin’s specificity for Clostridial bacteria and the observed responses in some children with reversing their autism symptoms. Thanks for taking the time to make a note of it in relation to the gut/brain axis exploration we are pursuing here in this thread.

It is a bold statement but it is bound in the box of providing nutrients. That is what each of the speakers I had a look at did say; Ede, Harcombe, Mason and we could include Fung. But Paul, we have passed through the small intestine where the majority of macronutrients are digested and absorbed, and we are into the chemistry lab that is the colon, the large bowel, where the bulk of the microbiota live.

Your summary was pin-point accurate to my understanding of fibre being a non-essential nutrient. I’m looking at it as a component for production of neurotransmitters. I guess it is the statement that such a large amount of serotonin is produced in the gut due to the actions of some of the microbiome and all the consequential links to mental health and happiness that flow on from there that is the topic being investigated here.

I considered carnivores in particular because a carnivore diet, though very low carb, is not necessarily ketogenic. So maybe I have a concern about non-ketogenic carnivore eating. And being selfish that goes to a personal observation that the degree of nutritional ketosis I can achieve is much lower on a carnivore challenge than when eating keto with fermented vegetables and fibrous avocado (for example).

The initial impression I get from these science communication videos is that the majority of serotonin is created in the gut from the microbiome. Carbohydrate addiction does not pertain to fibre.


(bulkbiker) #30

Of course carnivores are happy, we get to eat steak whenever we want!


#31

Ohhh let me tell you, being on the correct true carnivore plan, one is SO ketogenic it is crazy LOL There is no person on a carnivore/zero carb plan that is not a ketone burning body. We are ketogenic to the hilt and that will not change ever.

Are we always in ‘active ketosis’, nope…but we are more ketogenic then ketogenic bodies can get :wink:

I am not sure if you meant to write it out that way or not, but carnivore eating plan will never be a glucose burning body system, we are ketogenic to the ultimate!

I guess you are talking about a carnivore always ‘being in active ketosis’ by the ‘numbers’ on some pee stick or blood meter? Now the beauty of zero carb is we don’t chase active ketosis ever unless one has a medical condition that truly may required this process.

So I guess you are talking ‘about being in active ketosis’ then.


(Elizabeth ) #32

Not necessarily fiber-related but definitely keto… New study https://neurosciencenews.com/alzheimers-gut-fungi-keto-diet-16939/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


(Edith) #33

I only read the abstract. I will need to read the rest of it. I am wondering, though; maybe it would’ve been better to compare a modified Mediterranean diet and a regular Mediterranean diet. Was it the diet or just the ketones that had the positive affect?


(Edith) #34

@FrankoBear, most of the citations for the chapter on fiber in The Carnivore Code did not pertain to this thread.

The first citation below is about fiber changing the microbiome.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C47&q=dietary+fiber+intervention&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DstWwbSTaP8wJ

This second citation compares the microbiome and it’s changes for epileptic kids put on a ketogenic diet and compared those changes to their parents microbiomes which were considered the controls.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41522-018-0073-2?fbclid=IwAR1q7BKu4IN1-9g1E7PGBpwfvzVPu7Xe2g4omFEMR7B8HfBMKrd2kIHMCVw

The researchers expressed concerns about the changes in their microbiomes, but since the kids were compared to their parents who were still eating a “normal” diet, it’s possible the reality is those changes could be positive and they just don’t know.

Anyway, these aren’t quite what you were looking for, but you may find them interesting.


#35

I recall Borody had files on depression and bi-polar and a variety of mental illnesses and states.

He probably has more data than anyone in the southern hemisphere on this topic of gut biota. He charges a lot and his multi storey building contains a lot of marble but he is way ahead of everyone in the gut brain biota sample before and after transplant (as far as I could tell).
Seems like a great area for research. He’s not a keto doctor unfortunately.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #36

Not to mention the bacon! :bacon:

By the way, in order to be more on-topic, I should mention the work done by Dr. Georgia Ede and Dr. Chris Palmer, who have both been exploring the effect of low- and no-carb diets on mental health. There case experience has been very positive, though the data do not yet rise to the level of scientific proof.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #37

And serotonin is highly useful throughout the body. However, it cannot pass the blood-brain barrier, so the serotonin the brain needs has to be manufactured there, from whatever tryptophan manages to make it across the barrier. A lot of the tryptophan in our diet gets snagged to make serotonin before it makes it to the brain.


(Bob M) #38

I have no idea where this concept arose. I don’t think it’s possible to NOT be ketogenic. I’ve eaten tons of protein, and still was ketogenic.

Now, the problem is that my ketones are much lower now than say 3+ years ago. (BHB, blood) What does that mean? Not a lot. While I don’t take ketones any more (don’t see the point), I commonly got 0.2 or below 0.5 every morning, with higher at night.

Was I “in ketosis” with 0.2? I think so.


#39

yea FB made a mistake in how he posted…I believe truly he meant ‘to be in active ketosis’ on carnivore cause we ALL KNOW zero carb is a ketogenic body plan to the ultimate LOL
But we on zc do not ever have to be in ‘active ketosis’ unless we adopt a PKD protocol and shoot for that for specific reasons. ZC is the Granddaddy ketogenic menu :wink: FB is off working in the city, will be back I am sure after working so hard to let us all know :sunny:


(Elizabeth ) #40

yes it is ketogenic, Bikman explains that we use them all more efficiently as carnivores, we don’t waste them as many organs/tissues become fat burners and don’t use ketones


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #41

Yes! I love that line I’ve stolen from a forum member (whose name I’ve forgotten, sorry!), and which goes: You know you’re in ketosis if (a) you’re not eating carbohydrate, and (b) you’re still breathing in and out.


(Elizabeth ) #42

Maria Emerrich’s carnivore cookbook has got some good information about prebiotics and fermentable things in animal foods gut microbiome etc wehttps://books.google.com/books?id=l1THDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT6&source=kp_read_button


(Troy) #43

+1

Chapter 9
Pages 135-152

Not from knowledge or memorization
Just my "gut "…feeling :joy: