If it’s not a constant thing, simply don’t worry about it. You’re going to be basically glycogen depleted all the time, and your muscles will have very little as well. Some pasta isn’t going to totally reload the liver, fill your muscles, and start spilling over into fat storage. You’ll gain some weight on the scale (water) but quickly burn off the liver, and muscles will use it up as needed. Don’t make yourself “kicked out of ketosis” crazy. Definitely wouldn’t do the wine every night, but pasta here and there isn’t ending the world.
Doesn’t sound like you have a huge weight problem, being 5’8" @160. Don’t make yourself crazy about it, eat right 90% of the time, and you’re good.
There used to be an Italian restaurant near the Curzon Street Cinema, supposedly the oldest Italian restaurant in London. I remember their Dover sole and their veal piccata with great fondness. Fantastici! And Simeoni’s, which used to be at the foot of Drury Lane, near the Drury Lane Theatre, where my lover at the time had a standing reservation after performances, was also superb (pollo principessa, piccata, or fiorentina, scallopine sorrentina, sigh). Except for Patisserie Valerie in Old Compton Street, my memories of London food are mostly Italian. It was a very special time of my life.
Thanks all. The keto breath analyser reading as I got up this morning was the highest ever. This means the green light for a glass of red wine in the evening.
It is likely the first time in my life that I wake up in ketosis, stay there all day and am still in ketosis the day after. This will now be rigidly kept until Friday.
It’s a good feeling.
Thank you all again!
Update of the update.
Fasted all day yesterday as planned. Dinner was mushroom saute with (abundant) oil and garlic, grass fed sirloin and chipolatas, then gorgonzola and provolone cheese. But I wanted to test the alcohol stuff and also drank two glasses of cider.
This morning, I had a new record on the keto breath analyser, which tells me that the two glasses of cider are fine. It was very sad to have to eat the cheese without the bread, but hey… .
Hopefully you will get to used to it and prefer cheese without bread soon!
I find bread just diluting the experience most of the time (not in the case of cheese, I never wanted bread with cheese). My normal food is tastier than flour (even though bread is a bit magical and makes even flour tasting okay. if we add enough other stuff, at least. maybe this year I made a purely flour bread, I mean no sesame seeds and similar things and it was quite tasteless to me).
I definitely feel flour more now and I don’t like it. Even if bread is special and even pasta can get away with it… Certain things can stay problematic like this for decades or maybe forever - but thankfully I don’t need to eat everything I find nice Especially when I have a good reason not to do it.
It seems you ate pretty well I am only not envious because I fried some pork chuck in a pan with a tiny butter and it was wonderful
I will nevah, evah stop loving bread! I don’t eat white bread (which I find bland, and is used to, as you say, “dilute” the strong savour of your ham, or cheese, etc.). I eat surdough bread that is really tasty in itself and, in fact, I have often enjoyed it… on its own: bread on bread! (Can’t think now what it did to my insulin level!).
Last Friday I kicked myself out of ketosis with crostini with butter and smoked salmon. The following morning, the keto breath analyser told me “what the heck have you done”, but I wasn’t regretting it a bit! Alas, I was disappointed that the massive quantities of butter did not help me to avoid being kicked out, but I did not know this forum then…
If you’re interested in more theory along these lines, search for Gabor Erdosi and watch his videos. He goes into detail about food order.
I’ve often wondered if we ate something like salad first, then meat sauce with a good pasta (hard wheat + eggs), then maybe bread (though I’ve never been a huge bread eater), if we’d be okay. (Gabor Erdosi says that eggs + wheat for pasta will likely be absorbed slower and be less problematic than just wheat pasta). The problem is that the US isn’t built like this. They bring bread first, for instance. And the pasta is crap, usually the cheapest wheat possible and made with the worst techniques.
I personally don’t eat bread because (1) I never really developed a taste for bread and (2) wheat and I don’t get along.
Me too I started baking bread decades ago and even then, it wasn’t white. As time passed, it just got further from “normal” bread. It’s pretty dark and dense but my SO loves it so fine And it does have flavor. (Just not as much as an eggy bread has… But he doesn’t want eggs in everything, odd so weird )
I don’t know the term in English but I use part of the previous bread when I make a new loaf. I need less yeast and the result is tastier, I tested it in the beginning.
My SO loves bread (could live without it for a gluten free year, he ate rice but bread is different, their roles overlap but both have their own roles too) but he couldn’t eat it alone. I totally could. I still can with some nice bread, his requires butter and radish/pepper slices if you ask me
But a very carby bread is a bad idea for me. I could eat up half a loaf (I did it) without getting satiated (a lot of butter and honey doesn’t help but makes the experience nicer). Okay, now I probably can’t eat much, my body complains earlier. It just doesn’t give me satisfaction like some normal food that suits me. My keto bread works way better but it’s not so enjoyable. I make hybrid bread sometimes (when I know I probably will eat bread anyway and it’s a pity to eat the worst kind that I don’t even find particularly tasty… I do it rarely and my bread is very small), the hybrid bread is pretty low-carb with much satiating gluten but not keto.
You are similar to me in that… I am only disappointed in me when I manage to go off eating something not even really good! It’s rare but sometimes a relative visit and my curiosity gets the better of me… Or when I go too far, that’s not good either. But sometimes tasting something carbier just seem the best deal… As far as it happens rarely and I don’t go totally wild, I am okay. I still hope I can keep these very low in the future. My ultimate goal is not desiring anything not quite right for me. (I still can eat such things but desire is powerful and even if I resist, I may feel a tad restricted and that’s not nice and probably eventually wears me down. I like to have the choice, not just getting carried away due to my desires, that tastes like slavery! Am I dramatic? I am prone to that sometimes but I have passionate feelings about these things, they played with me for too long and caused problems.)
Indeed, eating lots of fat doesn’t keep you in ketosis, you need to keep the carbs low too… Fat helps me to feel right though Pure sugars very easily sugar poison me. Starches are better but my proper fatty proteins help a lot too. I always finish my meals with them, it feels very odd to finish with carbs, nope, I don’t do that. I tend to sandwich my non-animal carbs between carni dishes as it feels good to me. (Not eating them feels even better but I am not that good yet all the time.)
Then it would be very silly and unpleasant for most people I suppose. I believe SOME people would be fine with eating it separately but vegs are specifically there to make eating meat or eggs better. They balance things out. Fatty - juicy, for example. If I don’t eat the vegs with the meat, I just don’t eat it, they wouldn’t make much sense. Now. I used to love vegs and ate vegs with vegs but that’s in the past. It’s true I don’t need vegs with my meat but it’s still a lovely combo sometimes while vegs alone… Not much sense. My SO has very carby sides too but he needs protein, carby side and vegs in every bite. People eat salads mostly along with other things. Except the ones with standalone salads… My only good salad (I disliked salads, I only loved raw vegs. there is a difference. but I did like one kind and I ate it 1-2 times a year) was like that but it was full with fatty, fried and protein rich items All bites had to have everything for balance.
Now it’s easy, I eat fat with protein. Sometimes people talk about “fat first” but not just protein first makes way more sense to me, it’s not like I can take my fatty protein apart And it would be horrible too. They are only good together (except butter. butter is wonderful alone). I was even worse, I used to like only 65-70% food on keto. All my dishes were like that as far as I know. I couldn’t change it easily and it felt wrong when I did. I am better now but my days are almost always 65% fat just like they were in the last several years… If I push into one direction (I do like fattier or some leaner stuff, especially now that I trained myself), it still get balanced out in the end unless I focus like crazy and that’s tiring.
Not me. Eating carbs first, then carbs and then carbs? Definitely not. Even if some protein and fat is somewhere. Very many of us just don’t function well like that, no matter the order and even the kind of non-animal carbs. It does matter what we eat, when, after what and especially how much but a significant amount of carbs are bad news for many of us.
I almost always ate my carbs with much protein and lots of fat. It wasn’t good enough. It surely was better than without them… Still not good.
My main curiosity (and hope), was whether eating carbs with other macronutrients (say: fat) would reduce the insulin effect. This because there is basically no limit to the amount of cheese or butter that I could put in my pasta and rice if sufficiently motivated
It turned out that the effect does exist, but is limited and not sufficient to avoid getting out of ketosis. This puts me square in the camp of eating carbs deliberately during the weekend and “doing it right” (no vast quantities) and using those little tricks like, in case, carbs last.
In Italy, it is tradition to eat your salad and/or vegetable after your pasta. AFAIK, in the Nouvelle Cuisine it was recommended to eat your salad first (“crudites d’abord”) as the vitamins get better absorbed.
Personally, and after years of eating my salad first, I was thinking of going back to the old habit. This was because at my age (57), satiety announces itself later, and eating a nice rucola salad after the pasta will likely help me to feel sated with less food. But then again if the insulin spike is lower eating the carbs for last it does make sense to eat the salad first.
I am also noticing, after a year-long habit or regular intermittent fasting, that I am losing that slight tendency to overheat (on carbs) that I used to have. Therefore, the “good salad first and moderate carbs later” might be the best weekend strategy for me.
Oh. Interesting.
In my country salad was part of the meat dish as the middle course of a proper lunch… Especially Sunday lunches, the fancies, most family oriented one. We had soup, main dish (meat, grain/potatoes, salad) and dessert. Salad alone? Never heard about it until I have read menus of dieting girls. Or met a very wonderful seafood salad in a restaurant with limited keto options but that had enough protein and fat to make it okay alone…
Obviously different countries have different views. And the individuals probably often override that. At least the hedonistic ones I never followed dietary rules I didn’t enjoy (or at least wanted to try and didn’t mind too much)…
Not really. I am a frequent eater of nice salads with olive oil, aceto balsamico, salt and pepper (seldom sauces rich in stuff I can’t pronounce anymore) as a starter and find it very enjoyable. It does not prevent me from eating steamed broccoli or sauerkraut with my meat, either. Rucola I enjoy particularly much (again, it’s typical where I come from).
Ha! It’s true. It’s a very mediterranean thing! We visited Germany when I was a child and we were surprised to see those salads with those yogurt sauces accompanying the meat!. By us, you get a salad in the plate consisting of… salad and condiments, and that’s a thing!
So, why do you always take the opposing side, no matter what?
Salads have been part of human’s history for CENTURIES:
Just because you don’t like to eat salads is meaningless. Many people do, and eating them with vinegar reduces blood sugar and insulin responses.
And NOWHERE did I say “Eating carbs first, then carbs and then carbs”. That’s the last straw. I will not respond to your meaningless remarks any further.
I don’t. I always take my own side. Well sometimes I protect other things when someone is super intolerant and consider veggie eating stupid…
And I don’t feel I am on the opposing side, I just try to show when a very drastic thing just doesn’t suit masses. Like eating vegs alone. It can be done, I did that in the past too but they are very very often are there to balance out the fatty meat or whatever. Especially on keto where there are no carby sides, vegs are the carby side. They work well for many, even the ones who just couldn’t eat meat alone.
Very true, just like your opinion about I talking about my opinion. Everyone here does it. Many people bring their own experiences and expect everyone is the same. Not me. But I am pretty sure the vast majority of my country would be shocked seeing such a taking apart the meal idea.
So it’s definitely not just me and my weird ways.
I have no problems with people doing their own stuff. I just voiced that many people wouldn’t ever do something like this. The OP is different so it’s all fine now.
But you did… Salad, pasta, then bread. What are they if not carbs? I did write something other is among them but carbs everywhere, it IS very bad for many of us on this forum. Not the OP, sure, maybe that is your problem. I look at things wider, usually, not just regarding the OP.
Missing your wife’s birthday because of one meal that may or may not be bad is a bit over the top. Most Italian restaurants have at least one meat dish or a fish dish. As somebody who occasionally cooks meatballs that do contain breadcrumbs, the amount would be about 1/2 cup split between 4 people. I guess it would be less than 10 grams of carbs per person, not including any fibre that would blunt the carb effect.
Not in the least. I wasn’t missing her birthday. In fact I rode my motorcycle 430 miles in one day just so I could be with her on her birthday and I was with her all day. I just didn’t go to lunch with her and her friend. I have absolutely no problem going to a restaurant that has nothing I’m willing to eat and just drink water. That’s one of the benefits I enjoy about being carnivore. I can easily fast and it just doesn’t bother me. Trust me, my wife had no problems with me not going.
I see no reason to willingly compromise my diet just for a birthday. Seems pretty silly to me and if someone got upset because of it then they have no respect for me.
My wife respects me and would never ask me to compromise my principles.
(taking a bow!) 
Especially when I have a good reason not to do it.
I am only not envious because I fried some pork chuck in a pan with a tiny butter and it was wonderful 
)