Anyone listening to The Keto Hacking MD podcast (+protein)?

(Bob M) #1

Anyone listening to the Keto Hacking MD podcast with Jimmy Moore and Dr. Limansky? They tried a 90% fat diet for a week…and Jimmy Moore’s indicators (insulin, LPIR) of insulin resistance went UP, not down. That’s right, UP! And his ketones went DOWN. Both of those were unexpected.

They also followed Ted Naiman’s 3:1 protein ratio diet for a week, and both of them HATED it. Jimmy had hypoglycemia (but he also had this for high fat)! (Everyone thinks protein = increased blood glucose, but Jimmy found the exact opposite.)

I bought a continuous glucose monitor to test higher protein, lower fat, and could not find any increase in blood sugar, even when eating 150+ grams in a single meal. However, if I eat too much protein in a meal, I don’t feel great. I initially thought this was hunger, but I now think it’s a general malaise instead. I now eat a lower fat, higher protein diet, most days, because I feel better doing this.

I do lift weights (Body by Science) twice a week, though, so maybe that has something to do with it.

I also though protein reduced ketones, but now I’m not sure. I’ve eaten a ton of protein in a meal and not seen reduced ketones. I usually exercise after 36 hours, though, and I get much higher blood sugar (using my continuous glucose monitor) and reduced ketones from that. For instance, the other day, I started at 0.9 BOHB before exercise, and zero (low) after exercise! I’m using the KetoMojo testers now, and I test more often. I think I had interpreted this reduction in ketones as being caused by high protein, which I eat sometime (a few hours, typically) after my workout. But that was when I was paying $3+/strip, and did not test that frequently. Testing more often, I’m not sure that protein causes ketones to decrease.

In fact, in their 3:1 protein:fat ratio test, both Jimmy and Dr. Limansky found no decrease in ketones. (NOTE: their diet was lower calorie, whereas I eat to satiation.)

Anyone, is anyone listening to this podcast, and if so, what are your thoughts on the science in these?

(Tom Seest) #2

I’ve listened to the episodes and have enjoyed them.

In my case, I like to have longer n=1’s, and I prefer to split them up with longer periods of my normal eating / fasting patterns.

I find it difficult to come to any conclusions based on such a short period of time.

(Mark Rhodes) #3

I am all about the longer test periods as well as statistical curves of data points, not a solitary snapshot of a blood test, insulin test etc. The snapshot method could have been environmental or such whereas trends are more conclusive towards a level increasing or decreasing.

(Shayne) #4

This is exactly what I think when I listen to this podcast. If they had pushed through, how would their bodies have adapted? What if they ramped up slowly like Robert Sikes suggested instead of jumping straight in. I do think that it has been quite helpful for Jimmy because they seem to have found another confounding factor in his metabolic state and I hope that he’s able to fix that.

I’ve done the 90% fat thing… .it’s called a fat fast (except that they had way more calories than a traditional fat fast) and I felt just fine physically on it, I just felt restricted and locked in mentally and felt more apt to rebel against it.

(Karen) #5

I’ve done a bunch of fat fasts. They are about 900 cal. Never feel ill or deprived. But boring and am happy to return to chewing.

K

(Bob M) #6

According to Jimmy, he had horrible hypoglycemia with 90% fat. I’m not sure it’s wise to push through hypoglycemia.

I also test things for a long time. I’m still trying to determine what I think is the best fat:protein (or protein:fat) ratio, and I’ve been doing this over a year now. I’ve gone from eating more fat to eating a higher percentage of protein, particularly after lifting weights. Talk to me in a few months, and I might have a different idea. :wink:

I have not tried a fat fast, for the same reasons I have not tried a protein-sparing modified fast (PSMF): why do these when I could simply fast and not eat instead?

I’m not a huge fan of Jimmy Moore, but I have found these podcasts interesting, particularly because you have a super insulin sensitive doctor contrasted with a metabolically screwed up person. I find myself between these two: I’m not as bad as Jimmy, but I’m nowhere near super insulin sensitive. I also found the fact that fat could cause an insulin response to be intriguing. And the fact that protein does not cause a blood sugar rise, in fact it may cause a blood sugar decrease, was illustrative. For me, I can’t find a rise or decrease, even eating very large amounts of protein per meal. If I eat shrimp and mussels, which have some carbs in them, I will get a very small initial blood sugar increase, but then no increase over time. This is all using a Freestyle Libre continuous glucose monitor.

(Allie) #7

I’ve been listening to it. They reckon the issues Jimmy’s had are due to leptin resistance. Not a fan of jimmy at all but the show passes time for an hour.

#8

I think glucagon resistance was thrown in the ring as a possibility as well. I’d never even heard of it until Dr Bikman raised it so it was worth listening just for that little gem.

(Bob M) #9

Yes, they were trying to figure out why eating fat caused Jimmy’s insulin and LPIR (a measure of insulin resistance) to go up, and that was one possibility.

By the way, I did not mean to disparage fat fasts. I have friends who have tried fat fasts. I have been fasting for years now, so I do that instead, and didn’t even know about fat fasts until well after I had been intermittent fasting.

I do think that Jimmy’s results give pause to performing a fat fast. If insulin goes up on a fat fast, that’s not a good thing. I think the only way to know would be to test it, though, and to test it, you’d have to get to a blood drawing facility. That’s the hard part (not to mention paying for the tests). Jimmy Moore’s results are likely not applicable to the general population, but if one person has these results, others could too.

(Lucy) #10

Yeah I found that interesting too, Dr Bikman also mentioned it on the Human Performance Outliers Podcast. He discusses glucagon resistance (and Jimmy Moore) with Dr Shawn Baker around 22:12-29:44 here:

(Auden) #11

If someone told me that protein did not cause a blood sugar rise, but a blood sugar decrease, my first thought is: insulin response!

(Auden) #12

Thanks for posting that - it’s very interesting!

#13

On Keto Hacking MD they mentioned that Dr Limansky was going to look at the issue in more depth on the Livin La Vida Low Carb podcast - not sure if they’ve done it yet but it might be interesting.

(Lucy) #14

Yeah you’re right, it was episode 1406 :slight_smile:

#15

Excellent! Thanks Lucy :smile: