Any objective tests of "inflammation" caused by dairy?

(Bob M) #1

I have been trying to determine if dairy causes me any “inflammation”. If dairy (at the level and for the types I eat) causes me inflammation, I cannot tell. I have eaten and not eaten dairy, with no differences I could discern.

However, maybe I’m missing them. So, what I was gong to do is try a 2 week diet (carnivore, no dairy, but green tea and coffee), then restart eating dairy at the level I normally do. While I can write down any symptoms I have (if I get any), is there a way to test that dairy causes inflammation, though a blood test for instance?

This cite lists five tests:

I have had some of these. My last HS-CRP was 0.4, ferritin was 47, my “fibrinogen activity, clauss” was 294, all of which are low or in the normal range. (Though some might say my ferritin is slightly low.)

This lists another set of “inflammation” markers:

https://drjockers.com/top-5-blood-tests-inflammation/

On this list, my ferritin is slightly low and my RDW is 12.7, which is in the supposedly “optimal” range. My HbA1C was 5.1 and my last insulin was 12.9 (though I’ve had values from 3.8-33, and one “<3.0”, but that was taken after 4.5 days of fasting).

And yes, I was eating dairy before this particular set of tests.

Anyway, if dairy causes “inflammation”, are these or other markers suitable for an objective test of the inflammation caused by dairy? In other words, if I do not eat dairy to 2 weeks, get blood tests, then add dairy, would any of these markers help test inflammation caused by dairy?

#2

My opinion, based on my body (histamine intolerance, inflammation, etc) - I don’t think two weeks is enough, I’d give it at least a month.

(KCKO, KCFO) #3

Bob, are you experiences any issues while eating dairy? Many people have allergy or at least a sensitivity to it, but many more have no issues with diary. Are you concerned because eating dairy gives you issues or are you just looking for anything that might raise your inflammation markers?

(Robert C) #4

I agree - actually, the longer for each of the two timespans the better.

@ctviggen You might already know this but…

I think (but am not sure - as in I think I heard this on a podcast) that tests for inflammation are highly sensitive to recent activities. So, you’d want to keep the testing conditions the same - have the same amount of coffee the morning of the test (maybe zero), fast the same amount of time (if the tests require fasting), don’t run several miles the day before one test and not the other (probably best not to exercise for a couple of days before either test?).

Also, you might want to research the amount of error expected in the tests you plan. You wouldn’t (I assume) want to give up something as awesome a dairy for some numbers that are essentially (within testable error) the same.

(KCKO, KCFO) #6

I agree this is the way to do it.

Also the crp no. is excellent. A good indicator of little inflammation in the body in general.

#7

There are also a lot of physical symptoms you can track - redness (cheek, arms, thighs), itchiness, atopic dermatitis, edema (sock lines around ankles, swollen fingers), headaches, bloating, etc.

(Bob M) #8

Thanks, all.

My problem with dairy…is that I have no ostensible symptoms. In other words, often I’ll not eat dairy or only eat a little of it, and then eat more, and cannot find any symptom related to it. I don’t find constipation, allergies, anything.

Contrast that with eating hot peppers or other spicy food, where I get an immediate allergic reaction (runny nose, possibly sneezing, watery eyes, etc.).

I did do a test of Dave Feldman’s protocol, where I fasted 4.5 days, then ate a lot and high calories. To get those calories, I resorted to dairy fat a lot of times. There MAY have been some issues then, but I went from zero calories to eating as many calories as I could, and also added in some hot peppers.

Therein lies the problem: any test that involves dairy usually involves something else. For instance, a lot of keto meals have dairy, but also vegetables and the like. Is it the dairy, the vegetables or both?

That’s why I want to do carnivore for a while, then add ONLY dairy. This way, I minimize interaction between variables.

I know people recommend a month of carnivore, but I honestly can’t do that or believe I can’t. For instance, what do I eat out? I can’t get enough food with keto, adding carnivore on top of that will make it even harder. Similarly, I can make keto food the family can eat. No one in my family is going to eat beef fat by itself or bone marrow or just meat. I do eat a lot of meat, and avoid a lot of vegetables, but to make the extra step and have nothing but meat is difficult.

And sometimes, I can be hungry at night and simply have to eat something other than meat. Similarly, I will add mustard or even BBQ sauce to meat, because I can’t handle just meat anymore. I know people do it, but it’s tough.

(Bob M) #9

Interesting. Do you have any ideas why this is? I know if you exercise a lot, you can get a high value for CRP. Fasting in the short term (while fasting) can raise CRP, at least for me. I literally have no idea why mine is on the lower end. The highest one I got was 1.7, but that was after 4.5 days fasting. But I also rarely get it done (I pay for it myself, no one else is interested in it), and I really don’t know why mine is lower, yet others have higher values.

(Central Florida Bob ) #10

Aren’t you answering your own questions, in a way? It seems to me you’re saying you have no detectable problems from dairy yet you’re still looking for them. “I can’t find anything, so maybe if I look harder I can?”

I’m saying this because I think about quitting dairy from time to time, and while I haven’t had a bunch of tests done, I find that eating dairy does nothing to me that I can tell. Yet I keep hearing of people who cutout all dairy and suddenly ended a stall, started losing a couple of pounds every week, and felt wonderful. I suppose the hidden message there is that what they felt was normal was being constantly sick in some way. The only way you can know if you can feel better if you don’t do something is to not do it. Beware of the placebo or Hawthorne effect - because you’re trying to see if you feel different, you’ll feel different. Which is why proper tests are double-blinded.

Now I’m more inclined to simply be thankful for not having any issues with dairy or any other food sensitivities I can tell.

When I was in my early 20s, so roughly 40 million years ago, I remember hearing a guy on TV talking about food sensitivities. He said the test was to put the food in your mouth and if you liked it, that food was doing terrible things to you. I remember thinking that’s most puritanical bullshit I’d ever heard.

(Bob M) #11

This is the problem: The “anti-dairy” language that is on this board and on others. I just listened to a podcast where the person being interviewed was convinced that dairy was bad and inflammatory.

Since I was on a low fat diet for so long, it may be that I did not develop dairy issues. I did not eat dairy for a long time. Maybe that means I’m less susceptible to it now?

But this is why I’m looking for a marker. Maybe I have a dairy issue and don’t know it?

As a scientist, I like to test things. While I think there is a benefit to determining if there is some reaction, what if there is no ostensible reaction? Does this mean dairy is good (or I don’t have a problem with it)? Or does it mean I’m not testing the correct thing?

For instance, I got a CAC scan for various reasons, mainly because it’s the only test that tells you actual risk. TC, LDL, LDL-p only tell you markers, not risk.

Anyway, if there was a test like the CAC scan for dairy, I’d love to take it.

(Central Florida Bob ) #12

Again, that’s the problem. I mean, if you get a CAC score of 0, you know you’re golden. If you get a CAC score of 500, you know you need to take action to lower it (which, being here, you’re doing already) and recheck it in six months or a year.

With these dairy tests, how do you know? Your CRP is 0.1 over the range? Some other test is marginally high?

I’m with you. I know I’ve said this a zillion times: I’m a retired engineer. I did controlled experiments for a living. I’m still very data driven. I try to examine my life for sloppy thinking and get rid of it.

I say if you have to (figuratively) use an electron microscope to find your sensitivity, you’re not sensitive.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

Better to give it four weeks, before reintroducing dairy, Bob, at least according to what I’ve read about elimination diets.

For testing your reaction to dairy, you don’t have to go full-on carnivore, just dairy-free, and it’s only four weeks.

Go to Texas Longhorn on Bridgeport Avenue, and order their largest ribeye and a salad dressed with oil and vinegar. Their broccoli is also pretty good, assuming you can choke it down without butter—if you put olive oil on it, it should be equally yummy.

Be happy to come with, bro, if you need some moral support . . . just sayin.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #14

Okay, time for another “two-issues” post: The first issue many people have with dairy is intolerance to lactose. This is the default for adult human beings (we generally lose the ability to make lactase sometime after weaning), except that there are two known mutations that allow lactase to be produced into adulthood: among the Maasai and among Northern Europeans.

The other problem people can have is a sensitivity to one or another of the milk proteins. In lactose-intolerant populations this is never an issue, because you would have given up dairy long before you would have built up an intolerance to the proteins. So this is largely a problem in lactose-tolerant people, who over the years have been exposed to milk proteins long enough to build up a sensitivity. This sensitivity generally produces mild enough symptoms that people often don’t know they have it until they eliminate all the other toxins in their life by going keto. This only happens with milk proteins, not meat proteins, because milk is a food that the human race generally stops eating at a certain point, unlike meat, which we eat all our lives. People with beef- and pork-protein sensitivities have largely been eliminated from the gene pool.

I suspect you’ve been keto long enough, Bob, that you would already have an idea whether you have a problem with milk proteins. So do the elimination diet, find out whatever you find out, keep calm, and keto on!

(Edith) #15

I don’t believe tests necessarily work. I don’t have a dairy allergy, or so an allergy test states, but when I eat dairy, I definitely have a reaction to it: I get painful itchy bumps on my scalp and back, crusty ears, and terrible joint pain.

I discovered this because I already had the symptoms and then I tried eliminating dairy. The symptoms went away. I reintroduced dairy, and the symptoms came back. I also know it is not the placebo effect because there have been a few times I unknowingly ate dairy and developed symptoms. I couldn’t understand why I was itching and so achy. Then, when I looked at what I had eaten, something had whey powder in the seasoning. That was enough to cause trouble.

I really do believe the best test is elimination and reintroduction.

#16

This is how I tackle elimination, it’s much easier on keto, less ingredients to work with :wink:
Pick your favorite veggies from the low-oxalate list -> cucumber, lettuce, zucchini, cabbage, mushrooms, asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower, string beans, radishes, avocados.
Choose your meats and fats (evoo, coconut oil, lard, etc), avoid butter and ghee (some have issues with these, as well).
Eat for a month and then slowly reintroduce dairy - there is also a difference between cow and goat/sheep dairy, so another test you can try.
I have physical reactions to dairy - I start seeing sock lines around my ankles, I feel a bit bloated and constipated, but I don’t have any histamine-like symptoms.
I think that bloodwork testing would be very tedious and you would need soooooooo many blood tests to see what rose when and if it had any significance…

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #18

Keep us informed here. I’m very interested in what you discover and how the journey is to carnivore. Some of your concerns are mine: social, eating out, etc.

I wonder about dairy as well but I had 3 recent tests for inflammation and mine were all low (good) values:

hs-CRP 0.5
lp-PLA2 Activity nmol/min/ml 79 (<=123 is low)
OxLDL 36 U/L (<60 is low)