Any bodybuilders here?


(Erin ) #21

Well my numbers were severely low…only 700 cals as of now but I ordered a 12oz ribeye from longhorn and Holy crap! 910 cals! 72g protein! 68g fat!!! Omg that’s crazy!! Just from that one piece of steak I’ll be a little over my cals/fat/protein for the day.

Man I can imagine most days I don’t even eat dinner. I must be severely under eating . I rarely get to 1000cals

My metabolism must be shot out


(Erin ) #22

Thanks!!

I’m afraid of CrossFit lol. Too many injuries. For now just traditional weights. If you have any fun things to try I’m interested. I just have to be careful of my hips/knees I have some severe fascia restrictions with my hip flexors so my Lower back/hips/knees are usually super tight and in pain.

What I have now (in my house) are kettlebells, weights and TRX bands. Looking to get a set of some sort for the garage if u have suggestions.

I have my protein set at 110g on the keto calculator. I’m 150lbs. Is that ok or should I boost it up some?


#23

You have the basics to start a good program. How you build it could go a million different ways. Just make sure over the course of the week you’re hitting all your muscle groups. Lots of free workouts online and if you wanted to spend a couple bucks bodybuilding.com has a ton. Home gyms are great but if you outgrow it it can get really expensive to re-outfit it. I’m considering leaving my $20/month Golds membership for a $70/month “fitness club” type place for a couple amenities. Seems crazy but over the course of a year the cost is still cheaper than buying 1 or two pieces of good equipment. Everybody different that way. I’d crank up the protein myself. I’m more or less a fan of 1g/lb of body weight. Make sure you’re eating enough over all. You can play with it of course but things to look out for is no energy while working out and very extended recovery after lifting. That’s one of the things that more protein usually helps with.

On the mobility problems, make that a priority in your training. Don’t limit yourself because of it, work to fix it. Poor mobility will hurt you later on, it’ll stop you from having proper form on things and shift weight around. Mind Pump has a lot of free videos on their Youtube channel on mobility and even have a program (paid) completely designed around it. (MAPS Prime Pro). Check out the 90/90 stretch, that alone did a TON for me. I actually purchased it for some ankle and shoulder issues I had that were getting worse as I got stronger and the weights were getting heavy. Ankle mobility is fixed and shoulder are WAY better. The also have a Podcast which is pretty cool to listen to. Not one of those fitness podcasts that are geared towards dudes either, anybody could enjoy it.

Another source for a lot of my programs is Jim Stoppani, lot of people can’t stand him, I love the guy. Maybe because he’s a fellow A-hole New Englander I dunno, but a ton of programs and you can get a month on his site for $1 and have access to all his programs and just download what you want and cancel. He has one called “Yoked with bands” which my wife did, makes you realize how bad you can beat yourself with bands!

GOOD! Years ago when Crossfit just started it was actually pretty cool, fast forward to “trainers” that get “certified” with online multiple choice questions and it’s the injury mill it is today. To be fair there ARE good Crossfit gyms out there (my buddy owns one) but without knowing somebody it’s a gamble for sure.

Fix that! If you’re under eating you’re not going to make muscle gains, which also means the metabolism isn’t going to pick up. I did a lot of Metabolic damage to myself years ago when I hopped on the fasting train! Wound up having metabolic testing to confirm. Gotta be VERY strategic with that stuff.


(Kenny Croxdale) #24

It Depends On The Exercise

There are three energy systems. Two of the energy system are effective for those on a Ketogenic Diet, with the third system in the “Maybe” category.

1) Phosphagen Energy System

This system usea adenosine triphosphate, ATP, ATP is produce for up to 30 seconds.

It is primarily employed with Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Training.

Neither Glucose nor Ketones are used when training in the Phosphagen System.

2) Glycolytic Energy System

Exercise that last between 30 second to approximately 2 minutes utilize glucose. Those exercising in this zone usually perform better with a high carbohydrate diet.

So, carbs will go a long way with exercises in this system.

With that said, Rachael Gregory’s research on well Keto Adapted Cross Fitters showed they performed just as well as an individual using carbohydrates for energy.

The verdict is now in question regarding this.

3) Oxidative Energy System

This is the heaviest research area when it come to athletes and the Ketogenic Diet. Keto Adapted Athletes are shown to preform just as well if not better.

The Issue With CKD

The issue with the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet is…

1) Short Time In Ketosis

This method allows you to consume a high amount of carbohydrates for up to two days.

Doing that takes you out of ketosis for up to 4 - 5 days. It takes the body that long to get back into ketosis.

That means in a 7 day period, you only going to be in ketosis about one day, maybe a day and a half.

2) CKD Increase Body Fat

Research by Dr Jake Wilson’s (formerly with the Tampa Human Performance Lab) determined that the this quazi Keto Diet increased body fat.

Wilson determined that an individual coming off a Ketogenic Diet needs to reintroduce carbohydrates gradually.

Starting off by consuming carbohydrates 100 gram for three to four days, then 200 gram of carbohydrates for three to four days, and finally 300 gram of carbohydrate for three to four days.

Calories Count

When it comes to losing or gaining weight, calories matter.

Being in a calorie deficit is necessary on a Keto Diet for weight loss.

Being in a calorie surplus on a Keto Diet and you’ll gain weight.

In both losing or gaining weight, the protein and fat percentages need to remain in the zone.

Thus, when you increase protein caloric intake, you fat intake need to go up, as well.

Carbohydrates, no matter what, remain at 50 grams.

Overkill: A Gram Per Pound of Protein

Research, Drs Jeff Volek and Stepehen Phinney, determined that the Keto Diet protects and preserves protein, specifically Leucine, the anabolic amino acid.

Research found greater amounts of Leucine in Keto Adapted individual than those on the Traditional High Carb Western Diet.

Leucine: The Anabolic Amino Acid

Research by Drs Layne Norton, Jake Wilson, Gabe Wilson, Donald Layman, etc determined that around 30 40 gram of quality protein deliver the right amount of Leucine.

Thus, about 90 to 120 gram of protein on the Ketogenic Diet will maintain muscle mass. For athlete/active individuals, around 1.6 gram of protein is more effective.

That providing your protein and fats falls into the correct percentage.

Gaining Mass on Keto

Thomas Delauer goes into how consuming 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight works, as well.

However, Delauer states that the amount of fat/correct fat intake percentage needs to be maintained.

200 lb Body Weight Example

If you weighted 200 lbs that would mean you consume 200 gram of protein, 800 calories.

That means you need to consume approximately 248 gram of fat, 2240 calories. Consuming that amount of fat in a day is doable but a real challenge.

Take Home Message

  1. Even on the Keto Diet, Calorie Count.

  2. Maintain Macro Percentages.

  3. The Energy System Used, Matters.

Keto Adapted individual do well in the Phosphosgen and Oxidative Energy Systems, no carbohydrate intake/glucose required.

Keto Adapted individual may perform equally well in the Glycolytic Energy System. That is still up in the air.


#25

Yes, we have different energy systems that’s true and we utilize them differently depending on how we’re working out but you need to equate it to real life, not black and white science done by Doctors that don’t know a dumbbell from a trap bar. Phinney and Volek are treated like gods, and yes, I’ve read the Art and Science of low carb living and performance. The problem is everything they do is geared towards the athletic and endurance world which is a very different beast than people lifting to gain muscle whether its to look like a body builder or just better naked the building muscle part is a biggie.

On the gram/lb of protein if you look around (other than here) where weight lifting and strength gains is the focus and not weight loss or disease management you’ll notice a LOT of people agree on the 1g/lb. It’s not because we like to spend our hard earned cash on more meat or protein powder it’s because we get better results that way. Time after time after time you’ll find posts of people pissed off because they’re throwing away gym time and not making gains while eating 100g/day of protein. They up it and within a couple weeks the numbers are trending up!

We’ll also disagree on CKD. Anybody being serious and kicking ass in the gym is NOT going to be out of ketosis for the better part of the week from a CORRECT carb refeed. Maybe between 1-3 days. What you’re describing is the “cheat-o-genic” diet where you say you’re doing CKD but really just want an excuse to carb binge on the weekends which is NOT the point of doing it.

Look at real life results of the people doing this stuff. Does Jacob Wilson even look like he works out to you? Do you think he should call his you tube channel the “muscle” PHD? Not to me! Now look at Ted Naimen whos not a big guy size wise but ripped! Thomas DeLauer (who I’m a fan of) around a year or so ago went from a CKD protocol to very strict keto. Check out his vids from then and now and see how much mass he’s lost! Danny Vega went from CKD to strict keto then carnivore and he’s lost a ton. Loosing some excess fat and cutting down is one thing, but when you keep loosing now your loosing muscle and nobody wants to go through the work of earning it to loose it. Robert Sikes is an IFBB competitor and when he’s not in contest prep mode, training 5x more than normal and dehydrated he just looks like a normal dude who works out a little.

Use today as an example. My workouts are in microcycles so every week my weights go up and the reps drop. I’m in a heavy week this week so I’m in the 2-5 rep range lifting near my max. Do you think because I’m lifting heavier and slower that 20g of dextrose in my pre-workout isn’t going to have a huge impact on my workout energy which will in turn make me push harder? OF COURSE it will! That stuff burns like wildfire and by the time I’m out of the gym it’s over. My sugars are normal in the next hour or two and back to business.

I have to ask, do you lift for strength/hypertrophy? Not trying to discredit you but do you have any real life experience with this? I’ve been tracking my macros and lifting for a long time, I’ve tried every conceivable combination of stuff and the end story never changes. Strict keto sucks for muscle gain. I HAVE gained strength on keto but it doesn’t even compare with when I do it with even moderate levels of carbs. Being keto most of the time is all it takes to get the benefits for healthy people. People with medical issues are another story completely.


(Kenny Croxdale) #26

Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet

The majority of individual consuming a gram per pound of protein are on the Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet.

While some studies report that a gram per pound is necessary, other studies have demonstrated that around around 1.6 gram per kilo is effective.

The Ketogenic Diet

The Ketogenic Diet essentially turns everything upside down.

Research has demonstrated that less protein is required; Leucine is preserved and elevated to a greater extent than on the Traditional Western Diet.

Keto Gram Per Pound

Delauer noted that increasing protein to a gram per pound works, as long as you increase your fat intake appropriately; keep fat intake around 70% of your daily macros.

Under that condition, I agree that it should be effective.

I agree with the rest of the protocol the he recommends.

As Dr Craig Mark Says…

Your feeling don’t matter, facts do.

The research by Wilson’s lab (geared toward working with athletes) determined, CKD takes you out of ketosis for up to 4 - 5 days.

20 Gram of Dextrose

While that amount of glucose doesn’t hurt, it doesn’t help that much.

Other alternative are…

Consuming some MCT’s.

Ingesting around 600 mg of caffeine alone is effective or a combination of caffeine, ephedrine and a little yohimbe bumps it up.

My Practical Experience

I am a Powerlifter. I train Maximum Strength, Power and Hypertrophy. Research and anecdotal data have proven it provides an synergistic effect that elicits a greater training response.

I still have some State Records from years ago.

Body Weight: 208

Age: 52

Squat: 562 lbs/255 kg

Bench Press: 375 lbs/170 kg

Deadlift: 617 lbs/280 kg

I look somewhat like Wilson only a little heavier. :slight_smile:

Resume

  1. B.A. Degree, Exercise Science Minor.

  2. Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist, NSCA

  3. Former International Powerlifting Referee

  4. Current State Powerlifting Record Holder

  5. Director/Promoter of Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic, 2012 to Present

  6. New Mexico State National Strength and Conditioning Association Advisory Board Member.

  7. Former Powerlifting Meet Director/Promoter.

  8. Powerlifting Magazine Author of Strength Training Articles.

    You can find some of my articles on line.

  9. Commercial Fitness Sales Rep

  10. Speaker at the Pasadena, CA Strength Expo and two National Strength and Conditioning Clinic, along minor one.

This information can be found online.

Gaining Weight/Muscle On Keto

I have lost and gain on the Keto Diet without any issues.

To lose, I dramatically decrease my calories.

To gain, I dramatically increased my calories, primarily with fats: Butter, Olive and Avocado Oil, MCT, Liquid Coconut Oil.

Medical Issue

Due to a medical issue, I went on the Keto Diet in July 2016.

There was a definitely learning cuurve, going backwards before I went forward.

Once I got through that and I learned how to train on the Keto Diet; keep it in the Phosphagen System.

Traditional Bodybuilding

This method of Hypertrophy Training primarily utilizes the Glycolytic Energy System

Custer Set Hypertrophy Training

This training method was devised by Dr Jonathan Oliver as a means of increasing muscle mass and maintaining Power, Speed and Strength.

It works great for me and other that I have worked with with.

Traditional Hypertrophy Training increases muscle mass at the expense of Power, Speed and Strength; they drop like a rock.


(Erin ) #27

Quickly before I read the other posts…it says 1700 cals for moderate cal restriction and 1300 for severe cal restriction. (Im 5’5, back and forth from 150-152 for the last month)

If it’s been a month and I haven’t budged an ounce, should I drop cals to 1300? Or should I stay at 1700 for a week or 2 and then drop them?

If I don’t see some sort of movement soon I’m going to loose it


#28

MCTs definately give me a little bump but the dextrose seems to do better. For me at least.

You sir, are brave! I was a HUGE ephedra junkie back in the days of Xenadrine (RFA-1) and Stacker 2’s (the real ones) and loved anything with an ECA stack, but Ephedra AND Yohimbe? That’s a scary one! I’ve also never bumped by caffeine up to 600, although the 300 my pre has does pretty much nothing so I’m going to try that. I’m a slow caffeine metabolizer which hurts me.

Pretty damn impressive pulling those numbers at 208lbs! NICE! Our squats are close and you out bench me by a little but your deads completely DESTROY mine! I think a lot of it is in my head, I hurt my back years ago and always afraid if I push much past 350 or so that if my back tweaks while i’m off the ground all hell will break loose. I did a workout of Jim Stoppani’s once that used cluster sets, kicked the crap out of me but gained almost 8lbs of muscle in 12 weeks! Last time I put it on at near that speed there (may?) have been some gear involved lol.

Do you think you could have got to where you are now being keto the whole time though? I’m fixing stuff now but I’m definitely weaker than I was a couple years ago.


(Kenny Croxdale) #29

Dextrose Bump

I am bottom line guy. If it works, keep doing it.

That applies with your consuming a gram per pound of protein. However, I never got anything out of consuming a gram of protein.

I question if if a gram per pound is effective for most individual, especially for those on the Ketogenic Diet; since ketones spare and protect Leucine.
That because Leucine levels tend to be higher in those on the Ketogenic Diet.

Leucine

While higher protein is needed for athletes and active individual, it appears one of the reason for that is Leucine.

Research (Norton and Layman) determined that 2.5 to 4.5 gram of Leucine per meal/serving was necessary to trigger…

mTOR, Mammailan Target of Rapamycin

This is the “Light Switch”, the anabolic trigger for muscle growth.

The amount of Leucine necessary is Age Dependent.

Younger individual need less; their system are efficient; 2.5 gram of Leucine.

Older individual need more; their systems are less efficient; 3.0 gram plus of Leucine.

Absolutely

My first year of training on keto was frustrating. I didn’t know what I was doing.

“Research is what I am doing, when I don’t know what I am doing.” Einstein

With anything new, it takes time to figure out, no matter how smart you are; it’s the “Earn while you learn program”. You make deductive educated guesses and then experiment with them.

After the first year, I got back on track.

Oliver’s Cluster Hypertrophy Training

This hypertrophy method caters to Keto Adpated individuals.

Oliver research purpose was to find a method that maintained or increased Power and Maximum Strength while increasing muscle mass.

That because Traditional Hypertrophy Training increases muscle mass at the expense of Maximum Strength and Power.

The focus of Custer Set Hypertrophy Training is on keeping repetitions of an exercise in the Phosphagen System.

Light to moderate loads are used. Each repetition of each set is performed explosively. The training emphasis is on innervating/developing the “Super Fast” Type IIx/b and Fast Type IIa Muscle Fiber.

When Power Output drops in a set, that set is terminated, Continuing in a fatigued state works the Slow Twitch Type I Muscle Fiber, which is counter productive to the objective,

Thibaudeau’s Heavy Cluster Set Training

Thibaudea, a Strength Coach, is an advocate in the use (as you employed) with heavy loads. The same basic principle applies; training the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

The Intent

Research has shown that “The Intent” is to explosively lift a heavy load; pushing or pulling it as hard and fast as you can.

A heavy load still moves slowly. However, what this does is innervate, work and develop the Fast Twitch Fiber.

Hatfield’s Compensatory Acceleration

Dr Fred Hatfield came up with this term and protocol in the 1980’s. The research then followed demonstrating that Hatfield was correct.

As per Hatfield, each rep of each set needed to be pushed/pulled as hard and fast as possible.

Lactate

Lactate is what produces “The Burn”/“The Pump”. Traditional Hypertrophy Training produces lactate. Lactate trigger muscle growth more effectively than Custer Set Hypertrophy.

However, Cluster Hypertrophy Training come in a close second; increasing muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing Maximum Strength and Power.

“Velocity Training” is one protocol of performed movements explosively with moderate loads that is now being utilize as a mean of increasing force production, maximizing strength and minimizing fatigue.

Delauer’s Gram Per Pound of Protein

This is a well thought out method by Delauer that makes sense based on research.

  1. A gram per pound while maintaining fat intake at around 70%. That from one piece of research.

  2. After approximately 10 weeks, carbohydrates are introduced; essentially carb loading; Wilson’s research.

Carb Loading produces the same effect as Creatine and some anabolics; Cell Voluminizing.,

Dehydration decrease performance, strength and power. It like driving you car on under inflated tires; you get lower mileage per gallon of gas.

Superhydration does the opposite, it increase strength and power, This is like driving your car on over inflated tires; you get better gas mileage per gallon of gas.

  1. Intermittent Fasting

When too many calorie are consumed, body fat increases.

A dramatic increase in protein means a dramatic increase in fat intake, calorie.

To offset this, Delauer employs Intermittent Fasting.

  1. Refractory Feeding

Research has demonstrated that longer periods between meals/protein consumption maximize Muscle Protein Synthesis. Feeding needs to be spaced out every 4 - 6 hours.

Intermittent Fasting produces the same effect; greater Muscle Protein Synthesis, a greater anabolic effect, increase in muscle mass.

The body absorbs protein like a dry sponge, soaking up water.


(Kenny Croxdale) #30

Your metabolism has now adjusted to survive on 1000 a day; meaning that you are going to maintain you present weight.

To reiterate, you have one of two options…

  1. Drop you calorie intake down to 800 calories a day. The will trigger weight loss.

Unfortunately, you metabolic rate with adapt to 800 calories a day and you will stop losing weight, not lose weight.

  1. Increase your calorie intake. You will gain some weight.

However, your metabolism will then adapt to the new higher calorie intake; your body weight will stabilize.

You then drop your calorie intake down. Since your metabolic rate is elevated, you then drop the weight that you have gained and lose even more.

The MATADOR Weight Loss Study demonstrate that. Anecdotal data from decades of Bodybuilder have demonstrated this method work.

Meaningless Numbers

The numbers you posted are somewhat meaningless.

The foundation of calorie intake for losing or gain weight mandates that you first determine…

Your Daily Average Caloric Intake

First, you need to determine how many calories you are average per day.

This is necessary before determining how many calories that you need to consume.

Count your calories for three days, then divide by three.

Should and Need To Do

Your are all over the road. To reiterate, your first need to know your Daily Average Calorie Intake.

Guessing whether to consume 1300 or 1700 calories a day, at this point, amounts to throwing crap against the walls to see if it sticks.

It’s like driving around lost rather than reading a map or stopping to ask for directions.

If you drive around long enough, you’ll get to where you want to go.

This method leads to more frustration before it get better.


(Todd Allen) #31

We like to obsess about food in this forum but other factors can limit the results of dietary tweaking. How are your sleep, stress, relationships, happiness, satisfaction, health issues, career, home, etc.? Try to identify weak links in your life and do your best to address them.

Going keto several years ago brought me noticeable improvements and I’ve stuck with it in one form or another despite numerous rough patches. Since then I’ve encountered and addressed issues which have had big impacts on my health and fitness goals such as a home toxic mold problem, numerous infections such as periodontal, ear, sinus and of an ingrown toenail with toenail fungus. I’ve recently begun addressing chronic metals poisonings of lead, arsenic, cadmium and tin. I’ve had problems with joint pain from damage to cartilage and tendons limiting the intensity of my strength training. In hindsight I think the various infections and poisonings created increased need for micronutrients such as vitamin C and precursors of glutathione which I’ve been addressing with supplements when I can’t make measurable improvement through dietary adjustments alone.

My progress as measured frequently by DXA scans of gaining about 1/3 of a pound of lean mass per month for the past year would be considered pathetic by most. But I’m 55 with a genetic progressive and supposedly untreatable neuromuscular wasting disease most frequently misdiagnosed as ALS. So I’m proud of my results despite knowing it is possible to try harder, dig deeper, get more focused, make fewer mistakes and do better.

While it is important to identify problems and weaknesses take note of your successes and celebrate them (in thought, probably not with food) so you remain motivated to seek more.


(Erin ) #32

Well I got those numbers from a keto calculator to either gain, loose or maintain. Maintain was somewhere around 2100, moderate calorie restriction for weight loss was 1700 and large restriction was 1500. So the past few days I’ve been eating toward that.

If I counted my calories from day to day without any actual structure or acknowledgement Of what I was eating, the numbers would be all over the place. Some days I eat once a day, most days actually, and then others it could be all day. Some are large meals some are small, most skipping some meal at some point. My eating is all over the place. Some days I wake up starving and eat breakfast but most I don’t. I work from 7pm-7am. I have a horrible eating/sleeping schedule. It is nothing other than erratic. I have a 6 month old and a crazy 3yr old. So imagine.

Unless I follow some sort of strict schedule I have no clue. I’m sure the difference per day in amount of calories changes from 500 to 2000 on any given day. Some days I don’t even eat until 11pm.

The past few days I’ve just been focusing on putting everything I eat into this calculator and trying to hit somewhere around the numbers for fat/protein/carbs and soMewhere around 1500-1700 cals (which btw as of right now at 12am I’ve only gotten to 1300 and am 70g of fat away from the target number)
I am hungry…but I’m at work so :woman_shrugging: I won’t be home until 730am which means I won’t eat until around 4pm if I’m lucky. If not it’ll be around 10pm when I get a break back at work. Lol.
LOVE the hospital life!!

So as you can see it’s very very erratic.


(Kenny Croxdale) #33

Calculators

Those calculators give you a ball park figure that may or may not be right. With that said, the calculators amount guessing. It’s better to know than guess.

See how that works for you.


(Alex ) #34

Hi, I notice a few people on here talking about ECA & ECA Stacks, I was considering doing a 7 day fast with just multivits, fish oil capsules and ECA Stack

Can anyone recommend any retailers that might ship to the UK??