Alternate methods of lowering insulin

(Erin Macfarland ) #1

Genuinely curious about the answer to this question and hoping for some good feed back from the science minded folks here. If the goal of keto is to lower insulin to reverse or prevent diabetes, promote weight loss and other insulin related diseases, why not just utilize drugs such as metformin? What is the advantage of keto over drugs like this that have been around for a long time and are known to be safe and effective? Wouldn’t just lowering insulin by any means create the same health outcome as keto?

(J DAKIC) #2

I do not believe they are the same.
I have been on slow release Metformin for 7 years now to deal with my insulin resisistance (I am very much overweight but not diabetic) and over those years have gained 24kg. Started 21kg overeight and ended up 45kg overweight.
Yes was overweight to start off but now obese.
Conventional calorie controlled diets did not help.

When I started keto I was 111.5kg and have been eating what is considered a nornal healthy diet cooking from scratch with absolutely no junk food or ready made foods ever and once on keto with carbs restricted to 20g just 3.5 weeks later had lost 5.5kg.

Metformin alone may help some but keto eating definitely seems to work faster and more effectivelly - in my personal experience at least :slight_smile:

(Erin Macfarland ) #3

I guess I need more of an understanding as to the mechanisms behind how metformin lowers insulin as opposed to how keto does (I mean, I know how keto lowers insulin but why is this more effective than a drug that is specifically designed to lower insulin? And why would one result in greater weight loss?) I have heard that the IR version of metformin is more helpful for weight loss as opposed to the slow release. Not sure what the difference is there either!

(J DAKIC) #4

What my endocrinologist has explained to me when insisiting I take Metformin ywars ago is that Metformin does not lower production of insulin as such.
With people who are insulin resisitant insulin is not being absorbed by the body the way it should be and it remains in the bloodstream and then being excessive it converts to fat and is stored for future use. What he told me Metformin does is to get the organs and body tissue to start absorbing insulin as they were supposed to in the 1st place and then the lack of excessive insulin in the bloodstream means there is no excessive insulin to be converted to fat deposits.

Why in some people it results in weightloss and not in others I do not know.

I know I never ate commercially made crap but my portions have been large so that wouod contribute to my gaining so much weight (also due to disability pretty immobile so that would add to the problem) but according to every Doctor and Dietitian with my pre Keto diet I should have been loosong and not stacking on weight. They all basically called me a liar without saying the actual word which is the really frustrating thing. I was living of basic salads with nothing but basic homemade oil vinegar salt dressing, super lean meats and no more than 2 slices of bread (if that) per day but my weight was going up.

The only times I lost any weight was when I would literaly stopped eating anytning for 48 hrs and would drop maybe half a kg then try to maintain that then starve myself again in a weeks time and so on. Thatbis how I managed to drop 4kg pre keto but was making me really ill.

I think that Metformin has a purpose for insulin resisitant people and I am still on it but it is definitely not a weightloss tool for those with underlying medical conditions.

(bulkbiker) #5

Have you ever taken metformin?
I was prescribed it when first diagnosed with Type 2.
3 weeks of almost not being able to leave the house because of being tied to the toilet.
Also tried the slow release version which resulted in constipation followed by explosive diarrhea…
Keto is quite a lot nicer…and far more gentle on the body.

#6

In healthy people, the liver produces glucose during fasting to maintain normal levels of cell energy production. After people eat, the pancreas releases insulin, the hormone responsible for glucose absorption. Once insulin is released, the liver should turn down or turn off its glucose production, but in people with Type 2 diabetes, the liver fails to sense insulin and continues to make glucose. The condition, known as insulin resistance, is caused by a glitch in the communication between liver and pancreas. http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/new-information-on-how-metformin-works/

While I would quibble with the liver-centric model of IR, Metformin is primarily about glucose control without doing anything for the underlying insulin issue. It is said to make muscle cells more insulin sensitive, but that doesn’t fix the systemic overproduction of insulin, both basal and in response to food.

[edit: OTOH, @richard did see an increase in basal insulin when he stopped Metformin. But that is in the context of keto, not as a substitute.]

(Erin Macfarland ) #7

Very interesting!

(Erin Macfarland ) #8

I actually take metformin, the IR version, and don’t have any GI symptoms from it. I was just very curious about how these different approaches to managing insulin have such different effects.

(Linda Culbreth) #9

On Metforim, my fasting blood glucose stayed pretty much the same, way too high… I did have some gastro issues with it, but 20 minutes, almost to the minute after taking it, I would have a migraine headache that lasted about an hour and a half.

I agree, it’s a bandaid, and for most people a really good bandaide, but it is not doing anything to solve the underlying problems.

(Mike Glasbrener) #10

Yes. This is my understanding of Metaformin. If you are IR your tissues are full of fat and are metabolically resistant (insulin resistant) to absorbing more glucose thereby turning it into fat. Thus ever increasing amounts of insulin is required to over ride that. Metaformin changes the equation by lowering the resistance of the tissues to insulin thereby making the same amount of insulin effective at lowering BS. AFAIK It does nothing the reverse the cycle of high BS stored as fat which leads to more insulin resistance. It just buys time while doing nothing to solve the fundamental problem… A unhealthy diet…

The concept of an insulin lowering drug is intriguing though… I would guess if you lowered insulin w/o changing diet you would have BS through the roof along with all the systemic negative effects caused by high BS. Keto lowers insulin restance safely, slow and easy. Much like it came about.

#11

At a certain point, the ability of an adipose cell to absorb more fat becomes impossible, due to mechanical failure of the glut-4 receptor, and the FFA leaks back out. This will get converted back into glucose by the liver and cycled back and forth and shows up as elevated blood glucose. The more overfull fat cells you have, the worse it gets.
Increasing sensitivity in muscle cells may be a good thing, but muscle glut-4 can be completely dysfunctional or missing and not have an effect on IR. Other receptors will allow for uptake.

(Mike Glasbrener) #12

So metaform in “lowers IR” by utilizing additional receptors not by over riding the existing receptors? Thanks for the info. I learn more every day while losing weight and getting healthier here!:grinning:

#13

You might want to check out Ivor’s (and @erdoke) explanation here:

(Mike Glasbrener) #14

Thanks. I’ll check it out. I finally finished listening to all the podcasts this weekend. It’s kind of like drinking from a fire hose. There’s bound to be some spillage. Now I have to lap up some of the knowledge spillage.

#15

If you want some more in depth science, I recommend this one too:

http://breaknutrition.com/episode-5-enlarged-adipocytes-overloaded-lipids-lead-insulin-resistance/