Alcohol <--> cancer risk? This just in

(Joey) #1

There are mixed views about alcohol in the keto world for a variety of reasons. Many such beverages are low-to-moderate in carb content. But that doesn’t mean that alcohol is inherently good for you, again for a variety of reasons.

So the US Surgeon General’s advisory today will likely be of interest to this keto forum readership…

A quick read suggests that this newly reported correlation link between alcohol consumption (even at what are described as moderate levels of 1 daily drink/women and 2 daily drinks/men) and various forms of cancer is based on epidemiologically-based observations in the case of humans - and with causation pathways inferred by controlled animal studies.

No doubt this new pronouncement by the Surgeon General will garner lots of buzz … with teetotalers, bev companies and lobbyists, restaurants & pubs, abstinence & recovery groups, and most teenagers and their parents.

The full report pdf is slightly too large to upload (roughly 3meg) so for your convenience, here’s a direct link:

https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/oash-alcohol-cancer-risk.pdf

I’ll spend some time with it in hopes of better understanding how meaningfully accurate the media headline reports will be - and also eager to hear the perspectives of others on this forum who might be inclined to have closer look at the underlying science.

Cheers! :vulcan_salute:

#2

I’ve got zero problems believing that. Alcohol is literally poison to us after all. It screws up cells and screwed up cells are the ones that are prone to become cancerous.

When I started tracking HRV years ago it was BEYOND noticeable when I’d drink, even 1-2 that my HRV wasn’t right again for DAYS after. It was 100% consistent every time, and I’m talking feeling fine, being nowhere near drunk, zero hangovers, just a drink or two, all it took.

(Joey) #3

Upon some reflection, I think there’s a buried point in the 5% and 3% higher cancer risk (absolute risk) in women and men, respectively, by the age of 80 yrs that can be brought forward a bit…

I’ve added a comment to “Figure 5” from the report as seen here:

Observations-SurgGenAlcoholReport
Observations-SurgGenAlcoholReport.jpg712×881 155 KB

In short, 95% of women (or 97% of men) - i.e., the vast majority - can drink two drinks daily without changing their risk of getting cancer one way or the other. They may get cancer, they may not. But their drinking would not affect such an outcome in 95% (or more) of the people included in this observational study.

Still, I think @lfod14 makes a fair point … that alcohol is not likely a “good thing” for health. And most especially when consumed in larger quantities as there’s clearly a dosage effect.

Whether occasional limited quantities of certain alcoholic beverages (dry red wine?) might promote better health by reducing stress, or via other mechanisms, is still fair to explore.

Thoughts?

(Bob M) #4

If it’s mainly through epidemiology via FFQs, and it’s a low probability, it’s useless.

As for messing with HRT, I have heard that, but that doesn’t mean alcohol causes cancer.

Of course, I say this as someone looking forward to having a drink tonight. So, I am biased.

(Joey) #5

Perhaps a further complication with self-reported alcohol drinking data is that no one - neither intentionally nor unintentionally - reports that they drink more than that actually do.

Actual drinking is likely understated by some meaningful amount. Thus rendering the “<1 drink weekly,” “7 drinks weekly,” and “14 drinks weekly” categories a bit suspect. They’re probably more meaningful as ordinal as opposed to cardinal figures. :man_shrugging:

(KM) #6

And drinking anything but a jigger measured mixed drink is ludicrous in terms of measuring even if you’re not undercounting. Beer can range from 3ish to 8+% alcohol. So how many ‘drinks’ is one bottle? Somewhere between 3/4 and two. When’s the last time you squeezed 5 standard pours of wine out of one bottle at home?

I’ve been aware for a while that there’s nothing healthy-feeling about having a drink. I do indulge on occasion, I won’t say it doesn’t feel nice, but my body is not rewarding me for even a modest slug of booze.

(Doug) #7

:smile: A good-sized wine glass holds a whole bottle.

(Robin) #8

I read there could potentially be a correlation between alcohol and breast cancer. As a recovered alcoholic who later developed breast cancer, of course it caught my attention.
I’m not saying the verdict is in for my case, but it’s interesting.

#9

That would be me in the 90´s if you made it TWO bottles. :slight_smile:

Congrats for both of your recoveries!

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #10

I have a few drinks sometimes and feel horrible for about 3 days after. It’s not worth the poisoning but I still go back.
As for cancer … I assume Dr Berry is correct. ‘There’s no safe limit’.
One thing of interest, I’ve heard we can make alcohol naturally in our stomach! Loads of it!

There’s a better story but I only found this

#11

There are way stronger beers. I only drank some with 13% alcohol but there are stronger ones, they are probably not so common though… The 13% still is, not in some tiny supermarket but with a place with a decent selection…

–

About alcohol and cancer… I have no idea but I don’t even care as if it’s a question already, we probably drank way too much from this specific toxin. I would feel uncomfortable with that.
Of course I have no idea about desiring much alcohol, my amounts are ridiculous but that’s fortunate. I am not health-conscious to throw toxins to my body frequently and in significant amounts so my liver would be busy with neutralizing it for a while… Sounds a rude thing to do but again, it’s easy for me as I never want much alcohol. But I categorically refuse to give up alcohol too, it hardly does much harm while it’s tasty and does good to my rebellious/freedom lover inner self I suppose. Our relationship is distant but it explodes when I try to limit it too much and that’s not pretty.

IDK what is standard pour but it depends on the wine. My old fav wine was enough for 15-20 portions at least and it was a 0.5 liter bottle (it had 20% sugar and I felt no problem with the taste even after several months… it worked with 11% too, by the way). 5 sounds okay for a normal wine… But alas, no way I want that many in the very short time until spoilage, not even with my SO so I almost never drink wine :frowning: As they don’t come in tiny bottles and the super sweets ones aren’t for me anymore. One of my favs is not even something my SO touches, it’s just hopeless without some wine festival.

(Alec) #12

I used to be very close to alcoholic: I would drink over a bottle of wine every day, without fail. I did this for over 30 years. 10 years ago I decided this was not doing me any favours and I stopped for a week just to make sure I could. I felt better, so I made it 2 weeks, I felt even better, so I made it a month… and I haven’t drunk since.

I would not consider consuming alcohol now… it is just not something I consume any more. I had my fun with alcohol (and sometimes not so fun), and now I live a different way.

My advice is to consider an alcohol free period and see how you feel. You may get addicted to how you feel without the alcohol as I did.

(Joey) #13

This sounds like some serious intake … I’m regularly at about 2 glasses of red wine with dinner and nothing prior. I guess if I were at 4 glasses (a bottle?) I might begin to consider myself an alcoholic after all.

It’s all a matter of degree. But I do ponder skipping the wine for a while at some point to see if I do feel much different. Your comment inspires me to reflect. :thinking:

(Alec) #14

It was, but at the time it didn’t feel like it. I would have a glass of wine at lunch (and by a glass I mean a serious glass, not the stupidly small official “glass”), and then 2-3 more serious glasses each night. It was spread out over quite a number of hours, so I was rarely drunk, I just got a pleasant buzz and it helped me relax.

BUT, IMHO alcohol is a slow poison. The body can cope with it, but it is not optimal, health-wise. I would always wake up with a kind of brain fog that took a while to clear. When I stopped drinking that just went away: I started waking up and feeling alert and ready to go within minutes, not hours.

There is no doubt in my mind that my alcohol consumption was a major contributor to my being overweight (and in the latter stages I was obese). Keto, fasting, dropping the alcohol, and now lately carnivore has reversed all that and my weight is in the normal range. I’m not thin (I never will be), but my bodyfat is not excessive as it used to be.

I am pretty sure that both alcohol and fructose get metabolised in the liver, and we know that the liver is a crucial organ that it is unwise to abuse. I did for a fair while, but at the moment it looks like I got away with it. There is always a possibility that 40 years of bad living will catch up with me, but so far so good. All I can do about it now is to lead as good a life as I can: carnivore it is.

(Joey) #15

One thing’s for sure … If we’d known how long we’d have lasted we’d have likely taken better care of ourselves.

#16

Or not. In my heavy days, I often had one bottle of red wine when cooking dinner,like a stew that took a few hours,then another one with dinner and then a third one after dinner,just having a nice evening. Not very drunk at all. Wife might have a couple of glasses. I even might have used a fourth bottle for the actual stew.

“Just like The French do”, I said to myself. :slight_smile:

Maybe a little thirsty the next morning but that´s it. No hangover. IF there was a sign of hangover, a glass or two killed it. Still could drive in the afternoon.

I figured wine is nothing, strong liquor is REAL drinking so I avoided that. LOL!

I never saw a reason to drink a glass or two, or a beer or two…

(Joey) #17

Yikes! That sounds like some serious daily wine budget. Would’ve been cheaper to invest in a vineyard. :wine_glass: :grapes:

#18

I have read about a guy who drank 6-7 bottles of wine every day for a long while… So it IS possible for some people… I couldn’t even drink that much water every day!!!

I was very pleased with my 25ml sweet wine once in a blue moon while I still could drink it (I will try again but not the 20% sugar stuff), thank you very much.
The champagne on the 31th was extremely drinkable though. Not particularly enjoyable just easy to drink. As easy as water. I could have drank the whole bottle but I had help.
I can drink 85% alcohol too (well the right kind. Stroh80 rum was impossible beyond a few drops), that’s not the problem. Big amounts are. Well, not a problem, actually, I am glad it’s impossible for me to accidentally drink much…

#19

Yes it´s impossible to drink eight liters of water … but give me a case of beer and I can empty it in a day. Only 24 cans, one can every half and hour, no big deal, takes 12 hours. Again, you hardly get drunk on that. Two 1/3 liter beers per hour.

I was in Brazil in the early 90´s sitting on a beach,drinking beer. I don´t know what made me calculate such a thing but I calculated that I had drunk 10 000 beers in my life by then. I estimated the length of the beach and then counted that the little beach could take the same 10 000 bottles of beer in a row. Would look funny!

I think that was the first time I realized that I might have a problem coming.

I was a musician and had tons of free booze and beer for three decades. Sounds good? Ask my heart condition.

#20

Beer is definitely much harder to drink than water if one is me. My body has its limits when it comes to liquid, I felt super parched sometimes (summer cycling in a somewhat hilly area… if anything, that makes me thirsty!) but I already had enough water in the last hours and I just couldn’t drink anymore… No way any liquid can break that barrier. Water is easy. With limits. Once I forced 4 liters on a day, just out of curiosity. I was super thirsty all day because my body has logic like that.
And I am sure I would need much water to balance out beer… Possibly… Probably… Coffee is fine for hydration (once I only had coffee until late afternoon… I probably badly need water later, no matter how much coffee I drink. I drink super weak ones as I dislike bitterness and appreciate a subtle coffee flavor), beer is odd because of the alcohol… I would need water too. I think I always drink water after a beer. It just feels right.