"Addiction," sugar, dopamine, pleasure


(Erin Macfarland ) #1

Something from the lastest podcast caught my attention about the apparent “addiction” and “dopamine” response to sugar. This statement begs the question…many things stimulate dopamine including listening to music, hugging someone, and yes, drug use. All things that stimulate dopamine are not inherently harmful. We never discourage people from hugging or listening to music because they stimulate dopamine. I’m also assuming that eating a delicious high fat keto meal would also stimulate dooamine. So why is this argument that “stimulating dopamine” is to be avoided something that seems only to apply to sugar and cocoaine? Why isn’t dopamine stimulation in response to other activities or substances seen as harmful? I think the argument that sugar is “addictive” is pretty weak, especially when coupled with the dopamine argument. There’s nothing wrong with seeking pleasure through dopamine stimulating activities, it’s part of our physiology. And I’m guessing everyone here loves yummy, fatty pleasurable foods, which is partly why keto has high compliance. I think if we’re going to criticize sugar we can approach it from other known heath ramifications rather than calling it addictive. Not trying to piss anyone off…but I don’t think sugar is “addictive” on par with cocaine!


(Doug) #2

Hey Erin. :slight_smile: Never done cocaine, but I’ve heard it makes you feel GOOD. In our brains, the mesolimbic dopamine system is affected by sugar, as it’s affected by some (other) drugs. I don’t think dopamine stimulation, per se, is bad. The other effects of certain substances or activities can be, though, and with sugar there are often the concerns about insulin response, inflammation in the body, weight gain, diabetes and it’s complications, etc.

I figure you know all that. As for sugar being truly addictive - I think it indeed can be, at least for some people. Eating sugar is a behavior that’s rewarded by the dopamine release, and this will be habit-forming for many people. Agreed that it usually will not be as severe as with cocaine, but “addictive” nonetheless.


#3

Addiction is a brain disorder characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli, despite adverse consequences. -Wikipedia

I think the key here is the adverse consequences that arise from the thing you are addicted to, and the compulsion to repeat them at the expense of your health, etc. [Also, dopamine response to sweetness is supposed to make us want to eat fruits and get fat for winter. Eating sugar 365 days a year is a problem of overabundance.]


(Erin Macfarland ) #4

Yes! I agree with this. I just wanted to raise concern around asserting that sugar=addiction and dopamine stimulation=bad. It’s over simplistic, and I think the listeners of this podcast and on the forum are more discerning than that!


(Joseph) #5

I don’t think that the argument was that stimulating dopamine is something that should be avoided and only applies to sugar and cocaine. You are going to stimulate dopamine no matter what you pleasure you are experiencing whether that be with music, hugging, kissing, sex, food, a nice fatty meal, cocaine, heroin, whatever it is. A dopaminergic response to say doing cocaine or heroin is something that is seen as harmful and should be avoided. When you do these drugs specifically- you release an absurd amount of dopamine that would not be otherwise released if say you were listening to music or having sex or eating a nice meal. You have a base line in which your brain releases dopamine for certain activities. When you do dope, you hijack your brains dopamine reward system and flood your brain with more than it should ever naturally release. Sugar is one of those things that should also be avoided especially in large gratuitous amounts and is definitely not a staple of a healthy diet.

I think there is a strong correlation between Sugar and Dopamine but to say that sugar is addicting in and of itself is pretty weak (my opinion)… Is being addicted to sugar on par with being addicted to something like cocaine or heroin? No, of course not. Sugar does cause a physical dependence but not to the degree that say heroin or cocaine does. It is something that can be given up without having to go through a medical detox which requires a stay in an institution.

It is however true that sugar does release dopamine. Some of y’all might know. I am a recovering heroin and cocaine addict. When I first got clean, I ate the biggest bag of Sour Patch kids that you could get on a daily basis because I was trying to replace that dopamine surge that was caused by shooting up dope. However, I have since kicked the sugar habit (and dope habit) and have adopted this WOE/WOL.

Thanks for the good topic mate! I love talking about this kinda stuff.


#6

It is well known that carbohydrates increase serotonin( See Wurtmans work from decades ago) - it takes weeks for the post-synaptic receptors to re-normalize. Thus - carbs are a real addiction to comfort food.


(Erin Macfarland ) #7

I know there are people who have genetic predispositions to these types of dopamine stimulating substances. I know it’s much more complicated than what I’m suggesting. And wow, you are amazing to discuss your drug addiction. Being real about the stuff we struggle with makes it easier for other people to know whatever there going through is normal, it’s ok, and they’re not alone :slight_smile:


#8

Ok so here’s something to consider that I recently read or maybe heard at the KetoSummit. In obese people dopamine surges at the “idea” of a food or the “look” of food, generally sugar/carbohydrate but not necessarily only sugar or carb. When the food is consumed the elevated dopamine crashes. So the obese person does not get happy, calm, motivated, satisfied after the eating rather…unmotivated, dissatisfied, pleasure seeking for the pop in dopamine again. So, then the “idea” or the “appearance” of food presents, up goes the dopamine, food in mouth, crash goes the dopamine…you get the idea. This is not particularly true for lean or overweight people.( And I am frustrated that I can’t provide the link to the science but I’m trying to find it!). This is behind one of the recommendations that people trying to lose their weight should refrain from “just looking at the pastry menu” or “just looking at the pastry case”. The person in this situation is merely awarding the the food a rewarding dopamine surge.


(Erin Macfarland ) #9

Fascinating!!


(Meeping up the Science!) #10

[quote=“Emacfarland, post:1, topic:14289”]
So why is this argument that “stimulating dopamine” is to be avoided something that seems only to apply to sugar and cocoaine? Why isn’t dopamine stimulation in response to other activities or substances seen as harmful? I think the argument that sugar is “addictive” is pretty weak, especially when coupled with the dopamine argument. There’s nothing wrong with seeking pleasure through dopamine stimulating activities, it’s part of our physiology. And I’m guessing everyone here loves yummy, fatty pleasurable foods, which is partly why keto has high compliance. I think if we’re going to criticize sugar we can approach it from other known heath ramifications rather than calling it addictive. Not trying to piss anyone off…but I don’t think sugar is “addictive” on par with cocaine![/quote]

Pleasure seeking activities are frequently addictive for people prone to such things. Numerous process addictions, not based on neurochemistry, are addictive - shopping, gambling, sex. Just because someone is not addicted to something does not mean a substance is not addictive. Moreover, dopamine dysregulation and overproduction is indicated in many psychiatric disorders, actually. In fact, schizophrenia is thought to be caused by the overproduction of dopamine. This is basic addiction science, though.

Most people misunderstand addiction. There are chemical substances which cause immediate physical dependence (I would argue sugar is one), and then there are activities or behaviors which can become addictive via conditioning altering the neurology of an individual. Gambling, for instance, is frequently more addictive than cocaine for some people.

As for dopamine not being as addictive as cocaine, there is a growing body of research which indicates this isn’t an accurate statement. For instance, here is a well-known rat study which has been replicated:

Another study with high validity, regarding this phenomenon:


(Meeping up the Science!) #11

Also, rightly or wrongly, many people are able to detox off heroin or cocaine without medical interventions. Only alcohol and a few other substances require true medical interventions. I’ve seen more deaths from benzo and alcohol detox than heroin and cocaine detox without inpatient help. Here many places won’t admit you for detox for heroin or cocaine necessarily.

I personally disagree with this, because I feel medical assistance improves outcomes drastically, and it’s far from pleasant (to say the least), however we are in the minority unfortunately, at least here. :confused:


(Erin Macfarland ) #12

Here’s what I want to articulate- a person’s reaction to the “addictive” nature of sugar is the result of their biology, their genes, their personal history. What about people with eating disorders? I personally have a history of eating disorders and disordered eating and I know when I was at my sickest, I was OBSESSED with food. I thought about it all the time. Does this mean I was “addicted”? No, it means my body was starving and knew it needed easily digestible foods (mostly carbs) that it could use to keep me from dying. When I started “refeeding” after becoming dangerously lean, you couldn’t have stopped me from eating boxes of cereal if you’d tied me in a straight jacket. But I knew damn well this was what my body needed. I didn’t feel addicted to carbs or sugar. And when I weight restored my hunger signals and food obsessions normalized. But I don’t like insinuating that only obese people have stronger than normal dopamine responses to sweet tastes, I feel like this furthers the stigma that fat people have no “self control” and are hedonists. I’ll bet you most people with anorexia think about food way more than heavier people. Or people on diets. When the brain senses restriction it increases pleasurable responses to foods that it knows it’s being deprived of. Going off on a tangent there but I really don’t want to perpetuate that heavy people are somehow biologically messed up.


(Joseph) #13

Agreed. Heroin or cocaine don’t really require that kind of medical intervention. It sure does help having stuff to help get you off the heroin (not methadone or suboxone). I know I sure did need it :disappointed:


#14

Strong work kicking the hard drugs! I’m always reading about the opioid epidemic and it’s just so fucking awful.

Still, I don’t know if comparing addictions like this is super helpful. Folks strung out on gambling or sugar or sex are still ruining their lives and relationships and/or health. The sugar addicted diabetic that has their foot amputated and dies from heart disease isn’t doing any better than someone who is addicted to drugs.


(Meeping up the Science!) #15

It is interesting you mention eating disorders. I, myself, have an eating disorder, and I also have a degree in clinical psychology and treat eating disorders. In fact, mine was so severe it almost killed me, as I reached well over 750 pounds.

Eating disorders are addictions to control, actually. They are also frequently comorbid with addiction issues of many sorts.

However, they have the same pathology as addiction, on a neurological level. In the end, they are not about food at all, but about consciously (and often subconsciously) are related to traumatic events. Experiencing the trauma created a need to reestablish equilibrium and control. While not all EDs come from trauma, the majority do.

As for heavy people being biologically messed up… many of us are, actually. We may have a genetic predisposition for obesity, however accruing excessive fat, eating high amounts of sugar, and all of that, does often create “biological mess.” Also, weight wears down joints and puts stress on organs even if we have perfect metabolic health. Sadly, even a ketogenic diet can’t spare that if someone has extreme extra weight. Are all over people messed up? Well, of course not. Also “heavier” doesn’t really define things well.

No one stated that only obese people have stronger than normal dopamine responses to sweet tastes in the thread. However, from a purely biological standpoint, sugar triggers a very strong dopamine cascade and does, frequently, cause addictive behavior and cravings. There are extreme cases where people (like me) reach 750+ pounds, or 300 pounds, or 400 pounds. I see diabetics who are skinny constantly drink juice and eat sugary soda and other stuff all the time, because they, literally, cannot help it.

Just because something is addictive has nothing to do with fat people lacking self control? There is a self-control component after treatment, sure, but it is, again, poorly misunderstood. It is highly variable why people are overweight. Most often it is caused by trauma.

Just because something is addictive, too, does not mean it will cause addiction. People at risk, though, should probably be prudent and not indulge.


(Meeping up the Science!) #16

I mean, it’s basically asinine it doesn’t. It pisses me off, honestly, because it’s needless suffering. Suboxone is hard to get on here, and it should not be nearly so difficult. The people who need help the most often suffer the most. It’s utterly infuriating to me.


(Erin Macfarland ) #17

I agree and my point is I don’t like when sweeping generalizations are made like “sugar is as addictive as cocaine” or that people become heavy or develop diseases simply because they eat sugar . I don’t think the sweeping generalizations or fear mongering is helpful. I really wish there were a more nuanced approach in our culture to these issues, because they end up getting sensationalized and then people miss the forest through the trees. Not trying to ruffle feathers here, I just don’t want to perpetuate stereotypes and have people make uninformed judgements. This is a brilliant group of people who have no doubt been through their share of struggles.


(Mike Glasbrener) #18

I’d be very curious to know if the dopamine is a symptom of having a low blood sugar swing corrected by carb consumption or uncorrelated. Because anyone who is insulin resistant riding the carb rollercoaster knows the feeling! Riding the sugar high life is great. A couple of hours later you feel like crap because BS has crashed. You eat your carb fix and life is great again! Rinse and repeat 5-8 times a day, 365 days a year and Pavlov dogs look like child’s play. Does that mean a dopamine response? I would tend to think so…


(Meeping up the Science!) #19

Dopamine isn’t a symptom, really. It’s a neurotransmitter.

The carb crash is caused by the effects of glucose on the brain, and the fact that glucose requires constant and consistent ingestion to maintain blood sugar if someone is not fat-adapted. When we are keto adapted, we are better able to subsist off our own body’s stores. The brain is highly sensitive to glucose, however ketosis is far better for a stable and consistent neurological profile over time.


(Mike Glasbrener) #20

I get that dopamine is a neurotransmitter. My question really was is it possible that through experience consuming carbs is I very pleasurable result for carb “addicted” people. Thus aren’t they more likely to get a dopamine response? I no longer find carbs pleasurable so I would guess my dopamine response would be completely different now as opposed to when I was a carboholic.