? about this stupid protein issue

(Auden) #21

haha good point!

(TJ Borden) #22

I’m not challenging Fung’s recommendations. My point is that the “high” protein the article is saying is dangerous, isn’t a level people on keto are generally going to hit, so the assertion that Keto can be dangerous because of too much protein is bullshit

#23

I’m really enjoying this conversation - you guys are smart and funny.

I eat more protein than macro calculators suggest. I can’t load my body with 85% fat - I tried. Well, I CAN, but it’s not sustainable because I don’t love it.

I doubt the amount of grass fed, pastured meat from the farm down the street from me (literally I see the animals walking around on my way to work that are on my plate that very night) is going to give me cancer.
Again, I appreciate the conversation, however. It’s always a good one

(Chris Robertson) #24

I have a genetic condition that makes it hard to absorb certain vitamins and Iron and the Dr has always told me the best treatment was to eat lot’s of red meat. When I didn’t eat red meat for about 3 days I would get headaches and insomnia. If I went 5 days nausea and vomiting would set in. If I went long enough the insomnia would get bad enough that I would go for 3 or 4 days straight with no sleep and finally hallucinations would kick in. To combat this about 50% of my calories came from red meat.

Since I’ve gone on Keto things have been a lot different. I wen’t from 50% red meat daily down to under 20% and that 20% isn’t usually red meat. I now enjoy chicken and pork and get a lot of my protein from nuts and flaxseed. Being in ketosis some how fixes the issue for me.

I’m sure your situation is different than mine but what I’m trying to illustrate is things change when you are in ketosis. Problems you had before may lessen or disappear. It might not change anything for you and if it doesn’t then eat more protein but if you cut down and protine and feel good then keep your protein at the lower level.

(TJ Borden) #25

Glad to hear it’s working for you, but I’m not understanding what the problem was. I’d love to have my doctor tell me to eat more steak :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Chris Robertson) #26

It’s a 1st world problem, for sure. Walking through the grocery store thinking not prime rib again. :grinning:

Seriously though… It does get dull eating beef 7 days a week. It’s exciting to be able to eat other things or to have the option to bypass meat altogether and have nuts and seeds instead. Plus my wife is vegan so now I can occasionally get away with only cooking 2 separate meals a day instead of 4. It’s nice to be able to have the same thing for dinner. I’m also not a fan of factory farmed meat even if it’s grassed, pastured, and organic. I grew up on a family farm and we only ate meat we raised and slaughtered ourselves. As an adult I’m a chef and a luthier (building guitars) and don’t have the time to dedicate to sheep and cattle. I do raise my own chickens for eggs and now I can start raising them for meat too.

(TJ Borden) #27

I’m hoping to do that some day too. I know the challenge will be when it comes time to harvest the meat.

Wife: hey honey, where’s Gus, you know the cute one with those cool colored feathers?
Me: uh… not sure. Just eat your soup sweetheart.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #28

I’m doing lazy keto, so am doing what I have done my whole life. A serving of protein at each meal. Bacon for breakfast, cheeseburger for lunch, steak for dinner. All have fat as well. That puts me at around 65 grams of protein, which seems to work for me.

(Tovan Nhsh) #29

I switched to carnivore about a month back & have tracked glucose & ketones over the past few weeks. Although my daily protein average has doubled glucose/ketones have not changed in the slightest.

(Mark Rhodes) #30

Ted Naiman gives a talk at Diet Doctor requires a subscription.

Requires a subscription however extremely informative and leands excessive credibility to the idea we have all been too concerned about protein.

From my own observations I struggle both with hunger and stalls when my protein is artificially reduced rather than eating to satiety…about 1.5 to 2 g per lbm when I count it up.

(Shayne) #31

Dr, Bikman agrees with Ted on the higher protein levels. I find that I feel better with a higher protein intake, so I’m sticking with it.

(Brian) #32

I feel better when I have a bit higher protein intake, too. The 0.6g / lbm thing is on the low side for me. Twice that is not a problem at all. But more than that is beyond what I naturally want to eat and I don’t see any need to force it beyond that.

No idea if it has anything to do with me being male or being more physically active than some. I don’t “work out”, but I do “work outside” a good bit.

(Shayne) #33

I don’t think it’s because you’re male and active. I’m neither of those things (I do try to get some activity in, but I’m not working out regularly) and I do better with the higher number. I’m less hungry overall if I get about a pound and a half of meat a day when I’m not fasting. That would be about 1.2g/pound of lbm for me.

#34

I think 1.2 per pound of lbm is about what I get/need. I just feel better. I’m in ketosis, so it’s no problem. I do have to moderate, though, or I would naturally gravitate to even more than that. I love protein. But to keep keto, I balance higher protein meals with low-to-none. It sounds like that’s what you do, too, Shayne, via fasting

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #35

That is how I remember it, yes. So three grams of protein per—let’s say kilo, 'cause I don’t remember—for a hundred-kilo human being would be 300 grams of protein, or 1200 calories, and since steak is 25% protein or thereabouts, we’ere talking about 4800 calories of steak. I think that if your satiety signal is working at all, you’d stop eating steak long before that point.

Oh, and if you think that the 25% is by weight, then you’re talking about 1200 calories of protein plus 8100 calories of fat. How far do you think anyone would get in that case?

(TJ Borden) #36

Pre-keto? I think I’d be upto the challenge. Now? Not a chance.

(Robert C) #37

Throwing in another $0.02 here (funny how inflation never happens to this figure) on the protein debate.

Trying to clarify my point which is (maybe correct?) - the studies that are done on the ketogenic diet for much of the last century and this century so far are generally 75-20-5 to 85-10-5 (fat-prot-carb) or something in between or close (but always high fat) because these ratios pretty consistently get you into ketosis. It was studied for long-term safety (it had to be because children with epilepsy were put on it) and I am sure it was studied by “big food” to try to find a problem. Keto has not, in my mind, ever either been found to be unsafe nor lost a round with “big food”.

But, all of that history and all of those studies do not apply to diets with significantly higher protein intake. If your ratios are 60-35-5 or 50-45-5 then (even if you are in ketosis by blood numbers) the long term safety is not known (drinking nothing but olive oil all day will keep you in ketosis - probably not safely). So, when some pretty smart people say that higher protein will cause mTOR activation (mTOR was only discovered in 1993) which increases cancer risk, I think you should be careful about how much you vary from tried and true and well-studied keto ratios (especially when, in other circles, those same macro breakdowns are not called keto but are instead called a “high protein diets”).

Important quote from the Wikipedia link below:

Over-activation of mTOR signaling significantly contributes to the initiation and development of tumors and mTOR activity was found to be deregulated in many types of cancer including breast, prostate, lung, melanoma, bladder, brain, and renal carcinomas.

(Shayne) #38

mTOR is not all bad, though.

In more simple English, whenever we have lots of nutrition (mainly protein) and calories we essentially tell the body that plentiful times are here. We are ready to kick some ass and hunt some animal. Our cells increase their working capacity and ATP production is increased. Cells increase division and we are primed for growth and repair. mTOR is the protein that senses this and puts ‘the pedal to the metal’.

However, in times of any stress such as reduced caloric or nutrient intake, mTOR is inhibited ®.

It’s important to realize that mTOR can increase performance and we shouldn’t view it as either good or bad. It more like depends.

mTOR is one of those things that’s good to have cycled. Sometimes we want to increase it to grow muscle and improve certain aspects of cognition, while the rest of the time want to have low levels to increase longevity, decrease cancer risk and decrease inflammation.

You see, mTOR increases energy production, but also creates more junk products.

Autophagy is the process that degrades these junk products. But it is only usually active when mTOR is decreased. In other words, the body doesn’t start cleaning up until the party is over.

Autophagy is equivalent to a ‘detox’ from a scientific perspective. We need a balance between growth/junk products and rest/clean up.

(Robert C) #39

I agree - that is why athletes want more protein - to maximize performance.

But if someone is here in these forums to just do keto and watch the pounds melt off with little or no exercise - then I think high protein intake resulting mTOR activation (by consuming higher amounts of protein) is “all bad”.

For example, I definitely wouldn’t think the carnivore diet would be a good idea unless one stayed away from too many regular steaks and instead had a lot of the fat-rich offal and very well marbled steaks (to get to traditional keto ratios - low to moderate protein with high fat).

(Shayne) #40

As I understand it (and practice) we do go for the fattier cuts of meat. I once did a low fat carnivore diet and was successful at it (but then I stopped and we see how that turned out). Tried going back to it many times and just couldn’t because low fat sucks. :rofl: