? about this stupid protein issue

#1

I’m so over the worrying about protein on this diet that I don’t really do it anymore! I have always been a gal that needed more protein than others my size and if I go too low, I get a headache. So I eat probably more protein than I need, but I"m always in ketosis and I just barely give the issue a passing nod.

But my question is this: I know “they” say too much protein will kick you out of ketosis. That has never happened to me, personally, but it’s the word on the street. Does that mean it does so by raising blood sugar? My blood sugars are always quite low after eating a lot (for me) of it. So, if it doesn’t raise your BS, then it doesn’t mess with your ketones?
Are ketones ALWAYS correlated directly with BS? Mine usually are but is there ever a circumstance when they might not be? Just curious…thank you

(TJ Borden) #2

I tend not to worry too much about protein, but I’m also mostly carnivore. I don’t measure or count. Protein will trigger an insulin response, and it can be converted to glucose, but the “ideal” amounts are an ongoing topic of discussion, so if you’ve found what works for you, do it. Don’t worry about what others say.

#3

So if it’s not affecting your glucose, it’s not affecting your ketones? (the former I test, the latter is too expensive to test regularly so I need to ask )

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

They used to say that too much protein would trigger gluconeogenesis, which would result in excess glucose in the blood, and hence elevated insulin levels. These days, the researchers are all emphasizing that gluconeogenesis is demand-driven, not supply-driven. @richard did a podcast or a video recently on how much protein is too much, and there is a level where the body’s effort to break down excess amino acids can result in ammonia toxicity, but it’s a pretty high level. Dr. Bikman is suggesting that more protein is beneficial; whereas Dr. Rosedale feels that a very low level is best for longevity.

Don’t starve while waiting for the experts to come to agreement, lol! :bacon:

(Auden) #5

I agree. It’s so confusing. I get anxious thinking about the protein issue!

#6

I’m just going to eat as much of it as I like and want and track ketones. If I’m kicked out, I"ll rethink it but maybe I’ll just keep doing it. I can’t stand all the fat and watching protein so much. I could give a you-know-what about carbs, but the so much fat I don’t love and the moderating protein I REALLY don’t love

#7

My question is do those on a carnivore diet care about ketones? I guess I could ask that there…

(Alec) #8

I wouldn’t. As long as you have a portion of protein each day and you don’t have 10 portions, you should be fine! Anxiety raises cortisol and insulin, which is exactly what we’re trying to avoid. So… calm… :sleeping::sleeping:

(Alec) #9

My understanding is that they don’t care. Should you care that they don’t care? :crazy_face::crazy_face:

#10

I care that they don’t care because that means I can’t care a little more :slight_smile:

(Alec) #11

My brain hurts… I am going into care.

#12

Seriously, it all seems so much easier just eating meat and only meat at every meal. The end. Drop the mic

(Robert C) #13

It is funny that this came up.

Dr. Satchin Panda just talked about high protein on the keto diet in a “Found My Fitness” podcast I was just listening to - he said it increases cancer risk.

So, I looked around and found this:


Near the bottom are sections with these two headings:

  1. “Excessive Protein Shuts Down Autophagy and Increases Cancer Risk by Stimulating mTOR”
  2. “Beware: Ketogenic Diets Can Be High-Protein or High-Fat, But Only the Latter Is of True Benefit“

I wouldn’t vary from keto so quickly without looking in to what the alternatives mean. Getting nice blood ketone numbers but increasing cancer risk might not be a risk you’re willing to take.

#14

I don’t get nice ketone numbers, with .7 g of protein per lean body mass, or 1 g per. I am definitely over that part

(TJ Borden) #15

I don’t, but it has nothing to do with being carnivore. I generally don’t eat more than 10 total carbs a day (incidental from eggs, cheese, HWC). At that level, if I wasn’t in ketosis I’d be dead, so the actual “level” of ketones I have circulating doesn’t really matter to me.

For me, Ketosis isn’t the ultimate goal, its the path to being fat adapted and, with IF, increase insulin sensitivity.

(Ron) #16

I have done a personal experiment with this and have come to the conclusion that I have a specific daily protein level that will not affect my weight losing progress or change my ketone levels (from what I can tell), but when I start exceeding that level my ketone numbers fall accordingly and weight loss ceases. This is not science backed and just my personal findings.

(TJ Borden) #17

To @PaulL’s point about what Richard mentioned on the podcast; define “high”. The numbers Richard mentioned were a LOT higher than most in ketoeons actually eat. My guess is someone at risk would likely be someone using protein supplements. Plus, it’s not through an isolated occurrence of too much protein, but through consultant over intake. An attempt at conquering the 72oz steak challenge isn’t going to give you cancer.

(Robert C) #18

The article says 1 gram per kilogram or 2 grams per pound of lean body mass is what to shoot for. I assume more than that is “high” but, of course, proportionally higher - 10% high is probably fine - double - probably not.

According the article, the reason to keep the protein levels so low is to avoid mTOR activation (per the article - mTOR activation is virtually all cancers). It doesn’t say anything about the source of protein but I would assume powders would activate mTOR just as much as natural sources (but I personally think there are other good reasons to stay away from powders).

Agree - one time steak challenge not likely to be an issue. Original poster seems to be talking about regular higher than moderate intake.

(TJ Borden) #19

@PaulL might remember, but it seems like @richard said it was up over 3 where the issues started.

I’ve thought about tracking it just out of curiosity, but as long as keto keeps working for me without it, I’ll continue to be lazy. :grin:

(Robert C) #20

Higher protein numbers might be great for athletes that would like to trade performance now for longevity. Then, essentially you pick your level (below 3 I guess) and work out like crazy to put an extra 30 pounds of muscle on a lean 190 pound frame and get paid mega-bucks to do it.

But, for keto and weight loss - it may not be the right way to go. Here is what Dr. Fung says:
“So, how much protein should you take? The average necessary would be 0.6 g/kg/day (around 50 g/day) and LESS if you are trying to lose weight. ”
On page:
https://idmprogram.com/how-much-protein-is-excessive/
The whole page is a very good read BTW.