A veterinarian's take- our pets go through the same thing


#41

Yes, indeed! Lots going on behind the curtain - and there are plenty of good hearted vets navigating the high tech veterinary business model which I know is very very expensive. I appreciate you taking the time for considered writing and exploration of this topic close to our hearts :purple_heart:

Due to hearty ketosis, my usual writing skills which are already extensive get super-eloquent so my posts on this are long too - and no worries about reading it all or responding… just am hoping it’s of benefit! :sparkles:

My conundrum is that I’m a massive fan of the old-fashioned healing & care of rural life - I grew up reading and re-reading James Herriott’s novels - and I had grand and great-grand parents who were farmers and hunters, etc. I always feel somewhat lost in the high tech institutional settings, and though I am an astute advocate for others, when I’m the one that’s vulnerable due to an emergency for myself or an animal - it’s another beast altogether.

The thing about the costs is that those who are devastated about an animal injury or disease and who are economically marginalized (at least 40% of the adult population in the U.S.) and/or overwhelmed may not have the energy or assertion to self-advocate in the institutional setting - due to psychosocial realities and cultural differences. We see this psychology and institutional hierarchy a lot in otherwise healthy women who navigate industrial medicine institutions for physiological birth - experiences which often ends up with quite a lot of interventions and disempowerment without continuous care provider emotional labor support from certain trusted friends or midwives and doulas, etc. And again, such independent support & advocacy is often not accessible or doable for both parties, despite a few non-profits that try to help.

Yes, similar to human healthcare in the U.S., clinical bills/estimates for both human and animal clinical care are frightening to look at for those who are already stressed about money and then having to sign forms whilst in a deeply vulnerable state - and when the person articulating the bill is a much more privileged person, there are some additional weird dynamics. I’ve experienced NHS healthcare in Britain at a clinic as well as a hospital, and was treated with a humanity as if I were royalty myself - and zero fees/bills - this has lent me a particularly acute sense of the U.S. situation, what a difference!

Back to animals, when looking at costly estimates or putting down animals, the poor/indigent who are otherwise empathic may well feel doubly poor/oppressed in being forced to deprioritize animal expenses due to inability to pay. It’s different with people who are simply not that empathic about their animals though.

I agree, the U.S. fails at both human and animal access to quality emergency care as well as preventative care (defined by me quite differently than the superficial cr** that the health insurance industry considers prevention). I’ve had a hunch that a good many veterinarians in today’s world are often having to cope with the turning away or the euthanasia due to poverty situation - it’s its own stress for otherwise vocationally called and animal-loving people. There was a highly educated and bright young female veterinarian a year or two back in south Korea (I think that was the location) whose depression over the constant daily putting down of animals in the urban practice she worked in who were strays or whose care wasn’t funded - and the conflict she had about it in regard to her vocational vision, was implicated in her inner downward spiral that led to her tragically taking her own life. :crying_cat_face:

I have no doubt that for those who are more oriented towards kinship with all life, and healing - that it must be very very hard, the knowing of how intelligent and conscious animals are. I’ve long loved the book by J. Allen Boone called “Kinship With All Life” written in 1954 (new editions too - you probably already know of it) - that tells stories of kinship from the perspective of a successful Hollywood writer’s own life experiences, and his meaningful relationships with diverse creatures, from a house fly to a German Shepherd pro acting dog called Strongheart.

Opposed to such kinship is human supremacism - embedded in industrial culture & domination civilization - but it’s not the only way. Humanity lived for millions of years as aboriginal & indigenous hunter-gatherer peoples in harmony with the land and its creatures - it’s only very recently in history that civilizations have destroyed 98% of old growth forests, eradicated 90% of the big fish in the sea, and now our oceans can barely breathe etc. Another well documented report on this is circulating today, from Science Alert, with the headline "Humans are only .01% of Life on Earth, but has still Annihilated the Rest of it.". And, cultures that live outside industrial culture in traditional and or uncontacted way have had 99% of their lands stolen, and their cultures have suffered unspeakable genocide.

Anyway… Yes, scheduling a sit down w/ a hospital director about the strays and ferals sounds good - I’d thought of it before but assumed it wouldn’t fly, as when I’ve stated the origins of strays/rescues in times past and been humbly & thoughtfully transparent about not having credit lines and chagrined as to how to proceed front desk staff have certainly not indicated that could be a reasonable option. I know they are very overwhelmed themselves. Speaking of which, my local county animal shelter (which has been no-kill now for a year) associated non-profit arm that makes appear as if they are dedicated to TNR, has no dedicated paid leadership staff (only volunteers) and simply sends jumbled long emails with info which marginalized folks can scarcely grok, and dictates that people who want to borrow traps should come to specific locations within a very narrow time frame within biz hours - as if average working poor or long term poor folks can do that well. No other support. It surprised me when I learned of it, as I’d assumed the County at this point had a infrastructure for serving urban animals better. Such as weekly drivers that drop off traps, scheduled teams of volunteers that assist with trapping when a household is unable to for whatever reason, etc. We’re not there yet, alas!!!

However the wildlife rescue non-profits in my area are abundantly funded (by private donors) and excellently staffed by wonderful people. I took an injured male red finch in and he was treated like a King, thankfully - it turned out he was just in shock despite the trickle of beak blood, and he soon got released back to his neighborhood. :slight_smile: We also have an independent nonprofit founded by a compassionate semirural family farm on the outskirts of the city, focused exclusively on taking injured pigeons (already much maligned for just being… pigeons) so they can receive care and live out their one-winged or one-legged days in big aviaries. Someday soon when my schedule/resources allow I def want to serve as a volunteer for such places - imho they are patches of heaven on earth.


#42

That was so well said and written. The institutionalization of health care and the myriad ways that it marginalizes the less fortunate are something I hadn’t considered in that much detail before, but what you say makes a lot of sense to me and my own experience makes it feel true. This is a really useful insight to me, so thank you. I try hard to make clients feel like they’re in a casual environment and talking to a friend, and my techs have told me before “Your clients talk about you like you’re an old friend of theirs,” but it’s not like that with everyone. Sometimes I have trouble breaking through, and you’re right, it’s often the people who are poorer and more marginalized. I hadn’t considered before that I’m not the only part of the experience for them. It’s the entire system, the institutional feel of the healthcare and veterinary world, the billing and insurance maze, the stark delineation between their complicated experience inside this system and the very basic uncomplicated needs that they most commonly have.

Even today, I think many veterinarians would say James Herriot is one of the reasons they wanted to be a vet in the first place. But our experience in the profession isn’t so similar to his. I do love this work with all my heart. But I can completely understand why suicide risk is high (highest among the health professions and four times higher than the general population). I’ve been fortunate in having clients that not only go an extra mile (or five or ten) for animals (and I don’t mean just financially), but also show me the appreciation and love that honestly keeps me going. My volunteer work is also very rewarding. Regardless, it’s hard not to feel like the positive differences you make are a drop in the bucket while too much suffering of both animals and people is allowed to continue. One of the reasons I came to try a keto lifestyle is because of my own depression which isn’t caused by my profession but is definitely exacerbated by it. I’m hoping that along with other healthy habits I’ll achieve balance and perspective that will allow me to keep doing this. I can’t imagine doing anything else so here’s hoping!

The financial side of veterinary care is hard for me too, emotionally. You’ll hear some people in the animal community say that people shouldn’t have pets unless they can afford them. I completely disagree with that. Everyone deserves the love of a companion animal, maybe especially people who may not have much else.

But it’s hard to achieve that in the current environment. So, instead, I’ll have people who truly have very little money but are trying to do the best for their pet and don’t expect anything for free, and the best I can do is advise them about how we can get the most useful work done within their budget (and sometimes I “forget” to put a line item or two on the invoice, don’t tell my boss), and the very next client will be someone who has a power job and lives in a really expensive neighborhood and complains nonstop about the cost of every last thing their pet needs. I began to understand a conversation I had with a shelter veterinarian once back in my pre-vet days, where she told me she prefers shelter medicine because this kind of daily back-and-forth is eliminated and she’s the decider of how to use their resources to help the most animals. In the end, I feel like it’s my clients (the vast majority of them, anyway) and the love they feel for their animals that make this all worthwhile, so I can’t imagine completely leaving private practice.

There are lots of issues in reducing animal suffering and bringing balance back to our planet and you state it so well. My sights are set on pet overpopulation, and there have been great strides made on this across the country, but much more to go. That’s why I love that you do TNR. It really helps and I wish your county animal control people would serve you better. Around here too, though, it’s the private cat rescues that seem to be more effective.

I’m not fully keto-adapted yet, so I’m going to blame my rambling posts on that! LOL!


#43

Thank you @Callisto ! What you wrote is so true too.

Our lives are so precious and brief in the scheme of things - and seems to me that being the love that is our human potential is really what it’s all about, and creating breakthrough vocational leadership & community development is a part of that.

Wow! You’re not fully keto-adapted, I forgot that fact LOL. I’ve enjoyed your posts, and thank you for engaging these meaningful realms as we become well-nourished and Real rather than Velveteen - and do what we are here to do!

keep%20calm%20and%20trust%20the%20process%20resized


#44

Counting the days, baby! LOL


(Ronel) #45

This thread is pefectly timed for me, thanks - I just got my first puppy last week and unfortunately my vet is of the traditional mindset. She tried to sell me Hills when I raised the topic of nutrition and when I pushed a little she said “people are exaggerating and that a healthy dog will do well on a wide range of diets, just like a healthy human” sigh

In principle I would really like to feed raw but I’m terrified of doing home-made and getting the balance wrong because malnutrition as a puppy would leave her with lifelong consequences. I live in Switzerland and there are very, very limited options for pre-made complete raw meals - so far I’ve only found Nature’s Menu and they seem to have a mixed reputation on the internet, plus the complete meals appear to be geared to adult dogs, not puppies.

I’ve found a boutique store that imports Acana, Orijen and Terra Canis, so I’ve decided to go with the Acana puppy dry food for now.

Are you familiar with Nature’s Menu and Acana? If yes, do you think I’m making a mistake i.e. would Nature’s Menu completes be better than Acana?

I would also be intetested in what you think of this ranking of types of dog food by Dr. Karen Becker. Specifically, do you agree that dry food is that bad? Surely the dog would just drink more water, I don’t understand why it must be included directly in the food.

The video is quite long with all her reasoning, so the ranking is as follows:

  1. Balanced home-made raw
  2. Balanced home-made cooked
  3. Commercial raw complete meals
  4. Dehydrated / freeze-dried raw
  5. Commercially available cooked food
  6. Human grade wet canned food
  7. Super premium (feed-grade) wet canned food
  8. Human grade dry food
  9. Super premium dry food
  10. Grocery store brand wet food
  11. Grocery store brand dry food
  12. Semi-moist food
  13. Unbalanced home-made food

Your opinion would be highly appreciated.


#46

Congratulations on your puppy! You’re so on the right track, I really believe it’ll be good for your puppy in the long run. Acana is an excellent food and has a great reputation also, as a company. It’s one of my favorites to recommend when people aren’t able to feed a fresh food. Orijen is made by the same company as Acana, I love them both. I had to look up Nature’s Menu, we don’t have it here. The company’s branding looks a lot like Nature’s Variety, which we have here, but I couldn’t find any evidence in my short search that the two are linked. The Nature’s Menu foods appear to be high quality. But there are a few exceptions I’ve seen of food that looks good based on ingredients but for one reason or other I’ve come not to trust it completely. You mentioned the boutique store that imports Acana. Around here, I find the managers of boutique stores like that to be excellent resources about quality (they know if several of their customers have issues with a particular food), so you might want to ask them about the Nature’s Menu.

I think Karen Becker is great! I have not seen that list before but I’m going to bookmark it, because it looks perfect to me. And Dog Food Advisor is a great resource, I point people to it often.

Also, if you’re worried about balancing the food, until you get more comfortable with the idea you could still add some fresh stuff to your dog’s kibble. You don’t have to be 100% one or the other. I’d say to familiarize yourself with the foods that are either toxic or cause problems for some dogs and stay away from those. But the rest you can add in to top off your dog’s meal. :smile:

I keep editing because I keep thinking of more! You’ll notice that a number of the super-premium diets don’t offer a “puppy food”. The reason for this is that the overall nutrient composition in a lot of these foods is actually more similar to what the major pet food manufacturers market as puppy food (typically higher in fat and protein), not necessarily because it’s not appropriate for a puppy. If it’s not appropriate for a puppy, the label should say so, but again maybe ask the store people to be sure.


(Darlene Horsley) #47

We have an 8 year old Westie, 10 year old Bassett Hound and a 3 year old Chihuahua/Min Pin mix. They have always been on a grain free no by-products diet. For the past year our neighbor has been giving them shit biscuit treats filled with corn, wheat and soy. Grrrrrr. I’ve repeatedly asked my husband to ask him to stop because a. imho they’re poison and b. The dogs have gained weight thus increasing the cost of rx for preventative heart worm and flea and tick meds. Another grrrrrrr.
Now we are facing a $1200 surgery on our Basset for this tumour that is growing quickly! I’m not blaming the neighbor but can’t help but feel the biscuits contributed to it. He’s now been told to stop. We know he meant well but the lesson here is Don’t offer others’ pets or children for that matter crap treats!


(Cathy) #48

Best wishes for a good outcome! Well meaning neighbours and friends are difficult to deal with. I have mine trained to ask before feeding. I guess I have been a bit of a tyrant. LOL.


#49

Yeah, no one should feed your pets without your permission. How could they know your dog doesn’t have specific allergies? I’m sure they are just dog lovers who want to see your dogs happy at getting a cookie. Maybe buy some acceptable alternative treats and ask them to only give those to your dogs because you’re working on improving their health through diet. If they have dogs too, maybe they’ll ask you about it, and you’ll be able to help them out with your knowledge. :smile:


(Darlene Horsley) #50

Thank you Cathy. I hope we have a good outcome as well. Fingers crossed.


(Darlene Horsley) #51

Thank you Callisto. They do have dogs and love ours as well. As I’m sure you know, Westies are highly prone to allergies and skin issues but luckily I had a conscientious breeder! So we have told them all three dogs are on a special diet and no more treats. Our Bassett will eat anything not nailed down and as often as he could if we let him so for now I think we’re better off with a no treat plan.


#52

I think there are very few people who don’t enjoy the love a dog gives you for a treat. :smile: They have us trained, these dogs.


(Darlene Horsley) #53

For sure! :smile:


#54

All of our pets get natural diets. I had a 17 year old cocker spaniel with growths and bleeding tumours. Someone recommended a raw diet, her stomach could not handle the transition so i started cooking her food, chicken and vegetables every day. The tumours reduced and disappeared. It was crazy!
Our holistic veterinarian recommended a raw diet when we adopted our latest Cocker Spaniel 7 years ago. At that time we offered raw food to our then 14 year old cat. It took 10 months to transition him to raw but he eventually transitioned completely. When we adopted our kittens we put them on raw diets. I have raised cocker spaniels since I was 7. This is the first cocker spaniel I have had that has not experienced ear, skin, and eye problems. It’s unbelievable. The only time he had ever had runny eyes (A common problem among cockers) has been when he has been cared for by someone while we are out of town and both times the care giver gave him kibble. Not sure why, they both questioned me extensively on his eating raw chicken only while we were gone. I think they gave him kibble thinking it was harmless. Both times we came home and his eyes were running and I had to scrape tartar from his teeth. It’s unbelievable to me that after being told kibble will make him sick they still gave it to him. That being said I don’t think that I could ever be convinced to feed my pets anything other than raw. They are all super healthy. That 14 year old cat had kidney disease and lived until over 20 when he was killed by our neighbor’s dog. Our veterinarian felt he lived as long and healthy as he did despite his kidney disease because he ate a raw diet, he also used some Chinese herbs that really seemed to help.


#55

None of what you say surprises me, these are the stories I hear and it all makes sense, right? I am SO, SO happy for your pets. And for you for having that vet. I’m so happy more and more people are getting wise about commercial pet foods.


#56

Oh yes, we are super lucky to have our holistic veterinarian. So glad we found him when we adopted our current pup. He set us straight on food and annual vaccines (but that’s another story). He actually moved 1 state away but comes back monthly. It took one visit to another vet to convince me that the trip to see him in his new state would be well worth my time and energy if we needed him between visits.


(Mary McNeight) #57

As one of the top medical alert service dog trainers in the country, I advise my students to feed raw if possible. If they can not afford it, then the best quality kibble they can. I also recommend that they add coconut oil and fresh cooked meat to to their dogs diets when theve got an extra couple of bucks in order to add additional healthy fats and meats without paying an arm and a leg for $80 a bag dog food. Like the vet above, I highly recommend Acana and Orijen for your kibble needs as well as Sojos for a convenient raw solution.

If you want to know more about the pet food industry, I highly recommend watching the Pet Fooled documentary on Netflix and reading Prescott Breeden’s article on how the pet food industry is purchasing euthanized animals from your local shelter and vet and taking the meat from them and rendering them into products that they are then putting directly back into your cat and dogs food. Which means YOUR DOGS AND CATS ARE EATING EUTHANASIA CHEMICALS as well as the diseased body parts that caused the animals to need to be euthanized in the first place (ex: cancer). You can view Prescotts article here http://pawsitivepackleader.com/what-your-dog-food-manufacturer-doesnt-want-you-to-know/ as well as watch the expose documentary called Dead Pets Dont Lie on Amazon https://amzn.to/2L0IfwC

Mary McNeight, CCS, BGS
Director of Training and Behavior

Service Dog Academy - www.servicedogacademy.com
Diabetic Alert Dog University - www.diabeticalertdoguniversity.com

Featured Speaker at Association of Professional Dog Trainers Conference 2013
Winner of Dr. Robert Curran New Trix Award 2012
Winner of PAWS Hero Pet 2012
Winner of APDT Train Your Dog Month 2011


#58

Mary, I read about you in the KetoWoman forum and I’m in awe!! You instantly became my hero! Thank you so much for weighing in. :smile:

It was actually all the stories I had read (in books back then, in the late 90s, before vet school) about the disgusting material that ends up in commercial pet foods that led me to homecooking for my cats. In addition to rotting meat, and meat with euthanasia chemicals, there was an expose showing an employee at one facility tossing in an unopened styrofoam/plastic package of meat into the mix. It’s horrifying. It’s stuff like this that makes me recommend the brands like Acana/Orijen/Fromm which don’t outsource manufacture but rather keep tight control over the process themselves. One note to folks reading this is that sometimes as these smaller companies become larger, they may move from making their own food to outsourcing or get bought out by a larger company which then may do the same thing, so check in on your chosen brand of pet food every once in a while and make sure their standards haven’t slipped. Used to be I’d recommend Merrick along with those other three, I’m sure it’s still a good food compared to many others but it’s harder to know what’s happening now that they belong to Nestle Purina.


#59

@ServiceDogAcademy @Callisto wondering if there is a kibble like raw alternative that we could provide the person who cares for our dog next time we travel without him? In the past I supplied frozen raw meat but it was clear he was given some kibble. My daughter’s solution was to also provide a “dog food” and explain that ifthey wanted to give him something additional then this would not make him sick. Thoughts?


#60

Hey there! There are many dehydrated raw foods out there that might work for this purpose (Stella and Chewy’s, Honest Kitchen, numerous others). The texture of these diets isn’t loved by all dogs, and sometimes they do much better if rehydrated in water or broth prior to serving. I guess I can vaguely understand a pet sitter feeling weird about the raw meat, even though they should just follow your instructions, but it’s beyond me why a pet sitter would ever take it into their own hands to feed your dog something you did not authorize them to feed. In my mind, this is completely unacceptable. I know that’s a really strong statement, but if it were my pets, I’d be pretty pissed off. If you don’t have other options though (or maybe this is a personal friend who otherwise takes great care of your dog, etc.), then I think your daughter’s idea is good. Probably best if whatever kibble you leave for them is something your dog’s gut is already adjusted to (like maybe include with your dog’s diet a few times a week-ish), so it doesn’t have to suddenly adjust when you’re out of town.