A veterinarian's take- our pets go through the same thing

(Todd Allen) #10

Their results with cancer seem very promising.

After I stopped eating processed food, I did the same for my dog and for the past 2 years instead of pet food I’ve been feeding her, an 8 year old rat terrier, the same food I prepare for myself and my wife. We all 3 transitioned through low carb to keto meals with no ill effects. Our dog doesn’t want the salads but loves most everything else such as the eggs, organ meats, fish and dairy. She also readily eats most of the vegetables in our cooked dishes. She eats a higher percentage of calories as protein (guessing 35%) and a little less in fat (~60%) and maybe half the carbs (~5%) that I eat. Two weeks ago at our vet for vaccinations all the staff was commenting on how lean and muscular she has become. We’ve also appreciated that she has no gas and her stools are regular, hardly ever needs to poop other than our morning and evening walks.

(Cathy) #11

What a great thread! Thank you for sharing your personal take on nutrition and pets. I have had a lot of ‘blow back’ from my vet and when my now deceased dog got sick last summer, she saw 4 vets over a period of 24 hours. The first 3 insisted it was diabetes. It was not (finally a vet tech did a b.g. test and she had low b.g.) . Every vet made the assertion that it could also be her raw diet. She had lepto. She could have been saved had they not had their biases. I also had a role in the unfortunate chain of events feeling certain that it wasn’t her food or diabetes. It was heartbreaking.

My puppy is on raw and thriving but her vet begged me to feed her conventional dog food until she reaches adulthood. I declined the advice despite the extreme pressure I felt having just lost a beloved pet. I believe she (the vet) really believes she is giving good advice but as you say, it is much like G.P. - just don’t have the info and are biased.

#12

Todd, that’s really awesome. I haven’t figured out a good way to advise people how to feed their dog a balanced homemade diet without the use of specialized recipes or the pre-mix powders. Honestly, I think this is because so many people (myself including until relatively recently) eat such unbalanced diets themselves that just feeding your dog close to what you eat doesn’t work. But you’re pulling it off really well. I’m not surprised to hear she’s in such great shape!

#13

Cathy, the story about your previous dog is heartbreaking. I’m so sorry to hear it. It’s one of our flaws as human beings that our brains zero in on an explanation and then have so much trouble letting go. I’ve had one patient in my career (knock on wood) who I truly failed, where I should have known better, and because I didn’t use my best knowledge the dog died. My feelings of guilt over this dog will never ever go away. It’s terrible what happened with your dog, and it’s most likely those veterinarians will never make that mistake again. Ultimately, what we need is for the veterinary community and the pet food industry to stop demonizing raw food. Raw food may not be perfect for every animal, but we will never really learn the details of the risks and benefits if they just say it’s bad, despite all evidence to the contrary. I actually don’t know a single colleague who is against the food who actually has experience with it. I understand where your vet is coming from, she’s probably worried about infectious disease, and puppies are definitely more susceptible (which is why they get worms so readily). It’s a trade-off in risks and benefits, like anything else. Your puppy is lucky to have you!

#14

I totally agree!
My husbands old dog was a 16 year old border collie.
She was very arthritic with a dull dry coat and carrying extra weight.
She couldnt jump up into a car anymore and could barely walk down steps.

I changed her to a brand of dry food that had no cereal fillers, as well as lots of fresh bones and kangaroo meat.
Within a week I noticed a change!
She started losing weight and I thought she was grieving for my husband who had died over that time, but she looked brighter in herself.
Her coat started to shed and she eventually grew back a soft, curly coat.
She was more active - eventually able to even jump up into a car for the fist time in years!
I just couldnt believe the change in this old, dying dog to become a younger, playful and happy dog.
People would refuse to believe she was 17 years old.

Sadly, her total deafness did not improve and she was run over 12 months later and killed by a car she didnt hear, but gee she had a happy 12 months since I changed her diet.
I often wonder how much longer she would have lived in better health.

(Ken) #15

Here’s a thread to read. There are several other’s if you use the Search function for"keto pets". I’ve been feeding my dogs a Natural Diet for over 15 years. I reversed diabetes on a six year old Setter that allowed him to live to 13. In Feb I acquired a Drahthaar that weighed over 102 lbs. Since then he’s lost massive weight and should end up around 65-70lbs. A week ago I started an intervention with my neighbor’s lab mix. She’d become massively obese the last six monthis. It’ll take three or four months to get her back to normal.

Pancreatitis appears to be more related to carb-fat combinations rather than to just fat. I have had no problems with the 60% Whole Animal fat macro.

(Trish) #16

I can’t love your post enough! I’m happy to report that my dogs eat a species - appropriate raw food diet which my vet supports. Though both had rocky starts (backyard breeder and puppy mill stud) they are both thriving at 13 and 7 years of age, respectively. I have no intention of ever feeding them crapple and doom nuggets.

#17

Indeed!!! We are mammals, biology matters a lot!!!

Though nowadays it’s much easier to buy commercial organic raw food mixes, or super high quality grain-free kibble with raw coating for when the full raw is impractical, decades ago it was a very different story!

In the late 1980s I learned via health food store pamphlets from the first activists related to pet food reform about how all commercial pet food at that time used Grade 4 meat (not fit for human consumption, byproducts such as diseased parts, and gassed animals from animal control facilities - along with the flea collars some were wearing when gassed). That the food contained residue from pet anesthesia (still an issue is low grade pet food, news reports happen on it every few months) - along with nasty BHT/BHA. And this was vet-recommended? It enraged me in its lack of ethics and its dystopia and how the general public had been deceived - like with “Hill’s Diet” sold at vet offices :frowning:

At the time I switched to “natural” brands that didn’t have by products or chemicals - and started following the guidelines and vita-mineral mix based in Anitra Frazier’s “Natural Cat” book - because there wasn’t much more available in the health food stores books shelves and in the library.

THEN, whilst living in rural Scotland in the mid 90s I got to see my indoor/outdoor cats thrive on their many catches of fresh raw country mice - with amazingly new coats and a new general liveliness. Lost one eventually to roving boys with pellet guns, tragically. But the other - who continued a raw prey and other biologically appropriate meals lived to about age 22 which is apparently unheard of.

I’ve also helped some friends transition their animals onto biologically raw food and seen amazing healing occur. One special story was with a very grumpy, obviously in pain from arthritis, 11 year old tortoiseshell named Punkin. Her coat was dull, the slightest contact or unwelcome adjustment in her posture would be so painful she’d growl or bite - and she avoided walking much around the house. Poor thing! I’m sort of an animal whisperer and definitely an animal guardian - and Punkin was one of very housepets I’d interacted with who refused any affection and with whom I couldn’t establish communication - so uncomfortable was her body.

My friend told me the vet said Punkin was just old and arthritic, had probably been depleted from previously mothered a litter in past before adoption/spaying - and wouldn’t be around for too much longer. My friend had fed Punkin for years on the conventional veterinary-advised diet of grain-ridden low-grade ingredients junk.

When I explained to my friend that an anti-inflammation diet of biologically appropriate raw food with human-grade quality meat & organs and good fat from extra things like sardine oil and butter could really help Punkin, my friend was willing to try. At that time, independent pet stores had started to sell high quality frozen raw pet food - and I showed my friend how to thaw it and serve it and add enticing aromas like sardine oil or torula yeast to the top so as to lure Punkin to the new food. Punkin was finicky for only a couple days - and then starting eating two big meals a day… THEN - About two weeks later in the middle of the night there was some kind of thump downstairs in the kitchen - which my friend cautiously went to investigate. It wasn’t a burglar. It was Punkin ON TOP OF THE FRIDGE trying to open a package of buttery baked good. She had jumped a good 3 feet up from the countertop!!! And within a week or two she started more kitten behavior, like running around the house, chasing her tails, hilarious antics. And, she let me pet her, and purred. What a joyful confirmation of her wellness, and what a blessing personally for me!

Punkin lived many more joyful years - pain free, apparently! Her health recovery inspired various people who knew and loved her to switch their own animals over to some form of grain-free high quality food.

#18

What an amazing story! I remember the “Natural Cat” book, I used to have it! There have been so many other good books since then, but even now, it’s the only book I know of that discussed the fact that cats on a biologically appropriate homemade diet become hypoallergenic to humans. I observed this change in my cats. I had three at the time, and not only did I notice a marked improvement in skin and fur, but even the cat who still had a slight bit of visible dander did NOT trigger my friends’ allergies. People who had never met a cat they weren’t allergic to would come over and be able to play with my cats. My vet at the time said it must be something else. Maybe my cleaning lady was coming over more often or something like that, it was asinine.

I feel bad when I say such things about colleagues, but these are the same biases that occur in the general public, and in the veterinary world there’s not enough hard research (only evolutionary history!) to convince people otherwise. What pharmaceutical company or pet food company (both big funders of research that would be applicable) would, in their right minds, fund studies to show that allergy medications can be dropped, or that shelf-stable commercial pet food is causing allergies in people? This is one of the reasons I like the Morris Animal Foundation. They are a non-profit group that funds animal health research for its own sake, and they funded some of the early research that led to the recommendations about low carbohydrate diets in overweight and diabetic cats. We need more of that.

By the way, I used to make my cats’ food from recipes in books such as Natural Cat, but now I use the TC Feline grain-free cat food pre-mix, and add my own ground chicken and organic chicken liver from Whole Foods. The TC Feline web site is an excellent resource for anyone looking into biologically appropriate cat nutrition. And a web site by an excellent veterinarian called catinfo.org is a great overall resource for nutrition and other health topics.

(Carole) #19

I have a very finicky cat. I’m trying to get her to eat “Keto”. She just loves those treats and dry food. I’m not asking for medical advice but am I overstepping here? Sorry if I am. Any suggestions on how to get her to eat wet food? Thanks. I will understand if you don’t answer!

(Cathy) #20

Thank you for your kind words.

(Mother of Puppies ) #21

I used the recommendations from this site last week, and my dog started pooping blood!!!

Very startling.

I had only given her chicken, cheese and added chia seeds (Just eyeballed, no measuring) so be careful!!

#22

A Drahthaar!! Now there’s a rare breed! Ha ha! I honestly probably wouldn’t even know the breed if it weren’t for the fact that one of my exams in school included a case involving a Drahthaar. We all sort of looked at each other like, what the heck is that? LOL

That’s interesting what you say about pancreatitis, and I don’t doubt it. There are plenty of cases of pancreatitis (I’d say probably 80-90% of the cases I’ve seen in dogs, and 100% of the cases I’ve seen in cats, but “cats aren’t small dogs” as they say) where there is no recent history of a very high fat meal. Very interesting, thank you. And I’m really so encouraged to hear all the success stories you guys are posting.

To Candice- That happened with my dog when I switched brands and fed her Primal (a raw frozen food which I still recommend often). Lots of runny blood, the ground looked like someone had been murdered there. She just doesn’t tolerate it, even though many other dogs do really well on it. Every dog is different, and sometimes (just as in people) you don’t know their sensitivities until they try it. This is also why a gradual switch is helpful, as well as a vet who will advise you. I think your effort to improve your dog’s diet is very commendable, again just be sure the food isn’t missing essential minerals.

#23

I have to admit I have zero experience with keto diets in cats and dogs. So please take what I say with a grain of salt, but I’d be happy to share my thinking, I may or may not be right. I think biologically appropriate is the key here. And we know cats are obligate carnivores and they don’t go around eating a whole lot of anything else. Dogs and their ancestors are known to scavenge and have a slightly more varied diet. In general, cat food is supposed to have a higher protein content than what you find for either humans or for dogs.

When it comes to fat, I’m not sure anyone knows for sure, but I look at the theories behind the ketogenic diet and why our natural fat intake, and our bodies’ ability to use ketones, is far higher than other omnivorous animals. What I keep hearing is that it was necessary to get our brains to evolve to be much larger. Cats and dogs didn’t develop these enormous brains, though. A previous poster, Todd, mentioned his dog gets a little less fat and little more protein (about 35% I think he said) than he feeds himself, and this seems more natural to me. Again, a cat doesn’t go around eating high fat avocados or coconuts or whatever, they get the fat that is on the animal they eat. And they’re not eating seals, they’re eating rodents and birds. So, I don’t have the answer, but I think it may be that although cats and dogs shouldn’t get grains and a lot of starches, it would make sense if their protein-to-fat ratio is higher than ours. Even high enough to not be technically ketogenic.

As for finicky cats :smile: …
Dry food is like crack for a lot of cats. It can be a hard thing to switch them but don’t despair. I think it’s absolutely worth trying to switch to a wet food, and I’m happy to say that on the forum because I’ve never met a cat I wouldn’t make that recommendation for. Switching over from dry food to entirely wet food will often help shed weight without any other measures. Unfortunately I don’t have personal experience having to do this for my own cats. That site I mentioned (catinfo.org) has a section on converting dry food addicts to wet food, and it’s probably more helpful info than I would have to offer. Sorry I don’t have more!

(Todd Allen) #24

If it was a lot of blood, especially if dark in color, I hope you consulted your vet. A small amount of bright red blood though probably is something minor such as hemorrhoids or maybe a constipation related anal fissure. If the second my guess is either the cheese or chia. I’d be really surprised if chicken caused trouble unless it wasn’t deboned or something was seriously wrong with it. A gradual transition of diet changing things slowly and introducing new foods one at a time is a good way to catch problematic foods, both for ourselves and our pets.

(Mother of Puppies ) #25

It was bright red blood. I called vet, she said try a bland diet. It cleared quickly.

I think it was the Chia. I have been giving her a self-styled keto ever since I started it for myself. I noticed how pet cancers and diabetes have tracked our own. And processed food manufacturers are to be avoided among them as well as us.

(Carole) #26

Thank you so much. I really didn’t mean keto. I meant high protein wet food. Was just joshing because we’re on a keto site. I’m going to give it a try and thanks for getting back to me. Will check out the site also.:grinning:
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(matt ) #27

We started buying chicken quarters and tossing them in the instant pot. That’s the dogs food now. Pretty sure it’s cheaper than kibble as we were already buying the grain free stuff

(Cathy) #28

I hope you are deboning the chicken quarters. It is very risky to give a dog cooked chicken bones. Raw is fine but not cooked as they tend to splinter and can cause problems.

(Todd Allen) #29

I should add that we (and our dog) eat most of the animal products in our diet cooked, not raw, but it is mostly low temperature and/or moist cooking, a lot of sous vide and slow cooker soups, stews and roasts. Lightly poached eggs from our flock of free ranging hens are a favorite. We buy local pastured meat in bulk and get less expensive choices like untrimmed whole brisket and offal and might be spending less now than when we were buying dog food.