A thought occurred to me


(Jack Bennett) #1

CICO / LFHC dietician or nutritionist: “Well, keto is no good because when you stop and go back to eating carbs, then you gain all the weight back.”

Me: “So what you’re saying is that (1) eating keto maintains weight loss, and (2) eating carbs makes you obese? Can I get that in writing?”


#2

You made the leap in thought process that they don’t want you to make.
That’s another benefit of keto, the brain fog clears up.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #3

The meat industry figured this out long ago.


#4

great post and so insightful and slanderous and true :slight_smile:


(Bunny) #5

Pinch it off from both ends?

Eating keto is way to extract lipids out of a fat cell.

Carbs can be oxidized and not turned into lipid droplets by the restructuring of muscle tissue?

You want to bio-hack the mitochondria (keto diet) in the liver first to shrink the adipocytes, then you want to do the same to the muscle to oxidize the carbohydrates so they don’t turn into lipid droplets or too many lipid droplets by placing enough resistance against the muscle so that it interacts with the adipose tissue and get rid of the fatty deposits inside it that are preventing the immediate oxidation (glucose is turned into carbon dioxide[8]) of dietary carbohydrates and pinch it off from both ends?

What I mean by resistance or tension against muscle is not the same as exercise but very similar to lifting weights.

Ever wonder how your teenager can wipe out all the food in your cabinets and refrigerator and not gain a pound and they are thin as a board? It is the same way children oxidize carbohydrates; they don’t have fatty deposits in their skeletal muscle tissue? You keep overeating processed carbohydrates and lots of sugar, eventually it catches up with you?

Footnotes:

[1] “…PGC-1α stimulates mitochondrial biogenesis and promotes the remodeling of muscle tissue to a fiber-type composition that is metabolically more oxidative and less glycolytic in nature, and it participates in the regulation of both carbohydrate and lipid metabolism. …More

[2] “…By sifting through the secretions of PGC-1α-making muscle cells, Robert Gerszten of Harvard Medical School in Boston and colleagues have nabbed one molecule that might be doing the protein’s bidding: β-aminoisobutyric acid (BAIBA). They found that BAIBA induces white fat cells to become more like brown fat cells, altering their gene activity patterns. And it stimulates other cell types, stoking fat metabolism in the liver, the team also reveals today in Cell Metabolism. …More

[3] Beta-Aminoisobutyric Acid Induces Browning of White Fat and Hepatic beta-Oxidation and Is Inversely Correlated with Cardiometabolic Risk Factors

[4] METABOLIZED VERSUS FREE CORTISOL: UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCE

[5] Higher lipid turnover and oxidation in cultured human myotubes from athletic versus sedentary young male subjects

[6] Resistin induces lipolysis and re-esterification of triacylglycerol stores, and increases cholesteryl ester deposition, in human macrophages

[7] Exploring the Role of PGC-1α in Defining Nuclear Organisation in Skeletal Muscle Fibres.

[8] Resistance Training in Type II Diabetes Mellitus: Impact on Areas of Metabolic Dysfunction in Skeletal Muscle and Potential Impact on Bone


(Robert C) #6

In the dietician’s / nutritionist’s defense, they have a bias (similar to a survivorship bias).

People that eat Keto long term and lose weight and get better blood numbers (or reverse previously worsening health situations) and get mental clarity and generally have a huge uptick in their health do not return.

People that tried Keto as a fad diet for a month or two, saw Keto food choices as an imposition, “cheated” on weekends, were amazed they didn’t lose 20 pounds in the first week, calorie restricted on “Keto” foods instead of eating to satiety, etc. return to the dietician / nutritionist with a complaint that it didn’t work and likely with some rebound weight gain.


(Jack Bennett) #7

That’s a really good point and one that I didn’t consider.

The anecdotal data that comes their way is likely to be skewed toward their way of thinking. More of their “successes” will keep returning and following up while more of their “failures” will quietly cancel appointments and fade away.

And, as you point out, most people who are highly successful on keto aren’t likely to return to argue with the dietician-nutritionist who disagreed with them.


(KCKO, KCFO) #8

Truth. I did a package at the fitness center that included a visit with the nutritionist. She was all for HCLF eating. I had almost reached my goal weight at that point and only went to see her because it was included in my personal training package. When they sent a follow up email about a discounted package to work with the nutritionist further. I just put it in the recyle bin and never looked back.


(Windmill Tilter) #9

Nutritionists are actually a pretty good resource if you approach it properly. I got a consultation with the gym nutritionist as part of a training package like you did. Over the 3 months following my visit with her, I lost 42lbs! I just did the exact opposite of everything she said and it worked incredibly well!

Nutritionist: Exercise for 30min-1hr at least 5 to 6 days each week
What I actually did: I did the 15 minute Body by Science weighlifting workout once per week and nothing else.

Nutritionist: Eat a high carb, low fat diet with lots of fruits and vegetables
What I actually did: Ate high fat, ultra low carb, with no fruits and minimal vegetables

Nutritionist: I asked her about fasting and she told me it was dangerous and unhealthy
What I actually did: Extended fast (84hrs), at least once per week, and I feel 10 years younger


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #10

Wait… Stop and go back… If what I’m doing is working, why in the world would I want to stop and go back ? I love all the food that I eat. My weight has been rock solid for 5 months. I do keto without hardly having to think about it. Easiest way of eating I’ve ever done.


#11

:laughing::laughing: :metal:


(Jack Bennett) #12

I generally agree with you. I really like learning about a subject so that I can speak with experts at a more advanced level than the average patient or client. I also like being contrarian (not for its own sake but for truth and alignment with reality). I do feel disappointed when the “experts” seem less excited or curious about their own area of work than I do (or, at least, that’s how it appears sometimes).

I heard a recent interview with Nina Teicholz which slightly changed my thinking in this area. She made the point that not everyone is self-educated contrarians like us. We will be fine even in the face of “official” misinformation because we read and learn and try to get the real story.

But there are lots of people who aren’t interested in this stuff, and who believe their doctor or dietician 100%. To protect these patients, her ultimate goal is to update the government guidelines and the standard of care to reflect true scientific understanding of diet, low-carb, keto, etc. I think that’s a great goal.

BUT HOW COULD YOU GIVE UP BREAD? :joy::laughing:

It’s funny, I like(d) bread, and if it were totally keto I’d probably eat it. But it’s not something that I dream about or miss that badly following fat-adaptation.

There just seems to be a lot of incredulity on their parts:

“You’re doing keto, smart guy? What happens if you’re at a catered lunch for work and they serve PIZZA?”

“Well, I guess I’d skip a meal and fast through lunch.”

FASTING? That’s basically an eating disorder. You’re effectively anorexic.”

“Not really. You should see me eat steak with bearnaise sauce.”

OH MY GOD … aren’t you worried about all that saturated fat and cholesterol.”

“No, not at all.”

Etc, etc.

(Yes, this is kind of a composite straw man, but we’ve all read articles written by someone like this and some of us have even met them!)


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #13

But Jack, you know I bake awesome keto bread every week and eat some almost daily, right ?
We make keto pizza once every couple weeks too. Really good stuff :slightly_smiling_face:


(Jack Bennett) #14

There you go. If bread is important then you find or figure out keto alternatives. :grinning::bread:


(Marianne) #15

Yeah, I’d like to know why everyone presumes (family, doctors, nutritionists, etc.), that you can’t stay on keto for life (?). Don’t knock it until you try it.


(Edith) #16

Yeah, and I ate how dieticians recommend and exercised faithfully and lived by CICO and I was still slowly gaining weight over time. So, eating their way did not work for me either.

No “diet” works once one no longer follows it. That’s such a stupid argument!


#17

Love this statement!!


(Bunny) #18

I use to think like this and what people don’t get is nobody knows the long-term efficacy of a ketogenic diet in all its subdivisions.

True it does some magical things but they are most likely temporarily therapeutic on the long-term so nobody can speak for the general populous about safety and efficacy of the ketogenic diet especially for dietary guidelines no matter what fancy degree they have behind there name or what kind of placebo or paradox in all results they are seeing because I honestly think they are wrong, all of them even Phinney and Virta Health because it is lacking some important research.

The Ketogenic diet is just the tip of the ice berg.

Even if you go on a ketogenic diet it is still a band-aid approach just like insulin is to a type II diabetic and induces hysteria and fear of carbohydrates when eating too much processed carbohydrate is the real problem?

One of the problems I can already see is the ignorance of myology in conjunction with diet induced ketosis, when your body can no longer turn glucose into carbon dioxide, something is extremely wrong and a ketogenic diet is not the complete answer, you can fast intermittently or extensively and put your body into ketosis and the effect on the liver and pancreas is positive in the aspects of visceral fat reduction and reversal of diabetic symptoms but evades the fact that despite these dietary approaches it does not resolve the the problem of fatty skeletal muscle tissue and how you reverse that? Which led to the diabetes to begin with and why people gain unusual amounts of weight in the way of adipocytes, when muscle tissue gets fat inside it or embedded inside it through-out the entire bodies lean mass, the ketogenic diet could be making that aspect of it much worse long-term, because the most important aspect was ignored and the patient re-gains the weight and is back to possibly being diabetic, obese and much fatter than they were before with a damaged metabolism, because of the fatty lean mass or damaged metabolism to begin with was again ignored.

So it is a toss up between ethics and efficacy?

Let’s hope I’m wrong folks, but I highly doubt it!


#19

any proof? science? anything at all?

thing is if you look way back as hunter gathers, it was hunter mostly. Ketogenic diet is the REAL way humans are to eat. The seasonal food was just that. There was no 24/7, 365 blueberry bushes. No apple trees dropping fruit all the time. Climate, location etc drove food instincts and in all truth, animals were everywhere where the plants were not. Animals land and sea. The crux of life.

So in my past truth of ketogenic lifestyle IS WAS the norm…til glucose burn took over from agricultural and transit in food shipments and a sedentary lifestyle kicked in as in civilization and towns and more too feed people.

Thing is I can’t prove it but my timeline and more from the past makes a heck of a lot more sense science wise then what you posted :slight_smile: :slight_smile: A hunter was that. And if we all agree this is the basic form of survival from a gazillion years ago, then we can draw real science conclusions that humans were more ketogenic then ever glucose driven. Not rocket science big grab on that one to me.

not fighting in any way here truly spaceb!!! but you best show some proof of all the stuff posted as in facts and if not fact, show any past evidence to at least show what you state could be logical shown as a possibility or it holds no water ever.

and we all know less carbs to a diabetic is key. so what is this hysteria problem? mind situation etc? we all know the body works best on lower sugar. so…? point being…just not sure on what you are saying on this one. And why would ketogenic be a band aid approach when facts/lifestyle/science/theory conclusions and more show a ketogenic diet was probably what humans existed on first?


(Bunny) #20

If you read my posts, I think I have enough of that and more! What your reading here on the forum is my scratch pad!

Yes I’m working on my critical thinking skills even against myself and my unconscious biases, paradoxes and placebos?

All that hunt and gather talk is not comparable to the food we eat now, no matter how you think you are trying to duplicate it, it will never be the same.