A study with the right idea...but the words don't match

(Bob M) #1

See this article:

A GREAT title:

“Alternate day fasting combined with a low-carbohydrate diet for weight loss, weight maintenance, and metabolic disease risk reduction”

What is “alternate day fasting”? 600 calories on a “fast” day. Why isn’t this called “alternate day low-calorie eating”?

It wasn’t even time-restricted:

On the fast day, subjects consumed three meal replacements that provided a total of 600 kcal.

What’s the “low carbohydrate diet”? 30% carbohydrates, 35% protein, and 35% fat. If you eat 2,000 calories a day, that’s 150 grams carbs. 112.5 grams carbs for 1,500 calories; 187.5 grams carbs for 2,500 calories. Why is this considered “low” carb?

So close…and yet so far.

(Mike Glasbrener) #2

It’s a huge step in the right direction! It’s also a long term study!:+1:. This probably works for most people. If they drive down fasting insulin then fasting, of course, becomes easier since their fat stores becomes accessible. More drastic interventions are probably needed for the more metabolically damaged of us.

(Jane) #3

I agree a step in the right direction!

I really do think they are afraid to ask people to water fast for 36 hours every other day. If they give them “something” to eat then they aren’t “starving” their test subjects.

They need to join our forum for willing participants !!!

(Jack Bennett) #4

Yeah, the IRBs probably have more stringent standards for fasting, “starvation”, etc. Too bad, because 600 kcal isn’t really fasting!

(Bob M) #5

I have seen some studies where they do low calorie “fasts”, but where the calories are more time-restricted, say only for dinner. I personally think it’s easier to fast 36 hours than it is to eat, but only eat 500 or 600 calories. It’s like eating one potato chip or one tortilla chip or a 2 ounce serving of ice cream. I’m sure there are people out there who can do this, but I’m not one of them. :wink:

(Carolyn aka stokies) #6

It follows in the stesp of Longo’s work with his alternate day fasting diet. THat is, a diet that mimics results of fasting. This is used often with those combatting illnesses such as cancer, from what I have read adn heard so far. At least that’s my LIMITED understanding of the semantics.

(Jane) #7

Me too! I’d rather skip eating altogether than have just enough to make me hungry and miss food.

(Jane) #8

There are a few on here who have followed Longo’s fast mimicking protocol - maybe they can comment if this seems the same?

Paging @Arbre - didn’t you do this or am I remembering it wrong?

(Full Metal KETO AF) #9

Nor is it eating, just slower starvation. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #10

@Janie I did not use Longo’s FMD since it is not available in my country. But I have read his book, and I like it.

I am pretty sure Longo is right, and the FMD works as well as water fasting. In fact, he said in many videos that the FMD is created to avoid the panic of people to water fasting. He only once gave an advantage of FMD over water fasting (leaking gut patients or something similar).

I did water fasting recently. I just find it more convenient and less complex than FMD. But I would have zero problems in doing FMD.

In general, I believe in continuity: a small amount of food should have similar effects to zero food.

(Jane) #11

Thanks for the reply. Do you recall how many calories Longo advocated for his FMD?

(Bob M) #12

That might be true, for some people. I was always a scientist, since I was much younger, and have always thought of food as a tool. Therefore, I basically have zero food issues. Others, however, aren’t so lucky and can get upset if they have no food.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #13

The “original” 2015 Cell Metabolism paper that described the diet quoted the composition as:

Calories Protein Fat Carbs
Day 1 1,090 calories 10% 56% 34%
Day 2-5 725 calories 9% 44% 47%

https://longevityy.com/diy-fmd/

(Bob M) #14

Yikes! That seems like such a low amount of calories and protein. Is there a recovery phase after that?

(Bunny) #15

Looks healthy to me but could use more carbohydrates after a long time doing it.

Technically low carbs is 300 grams or under of carbohydrates. 350 to 400 grams of carbohydrate moderate, 450 to 500 high.

Some people may like to stay at the 20 gram (3 day only induction phase) or less threshold because of the severity of their problems and others not. I still wonder if that is a wise thing to do long-term though?

What I’m seeing in general in those that the 20 grams or under don’t work or quit working for weight loss or fat burning is that they are simply making it extremely difficult for there metabolism to work correctly by restricting carbohydrates so obssessively, and not for the better because they are looking for instantaneous results so they just give up all together and go back to eating the way they were before, making it even worse and get fatter in the process, after they lost all this so called “weight”.

calories in calories out <== if you do not believe that then you also cannot simultaneously believe restricting carbohydrates to ridiculous levels (long-term) will work either? Cognitive dissonance and/or double speak?

CICO?

(Justin Jordan) #16

When it’s been researched, 500 calories days alternated with normal eating days have been found to have better retention of lean mass than constant calorie restriction, and positive effects on inflammation and other markers.

To the extent that metabolic slowdown (as opposed to just what you’d expect from weighing less) exists, it’s not as if there’s a hard on and off switch (or even for autophagy - you are literally doing it all the time, although you can influence how much).

Which Fung himself has mentioned in interviews. They’ve done a looooot of studies on 500 calories a day (mostly because, and this is the same reason the fasting mimicking diet exists, it’s easier to get people to do it) and it seems to work about as well as doing total fasts for weight loss.

Varady (one of the researchers here, and probably the big ADF researcher) has recently done ADF studies with water fasts. She does normally call the 500 day version ‘modified’ fasting, as well.

(Justin Jordan) #17

Because it’s about half the actual average (male, anyway) intake, and a lot lower than the recommended carb intake?

You’re looking at it from a keto lens. That IS a low carb intake compared to the average western diet.

#18

Except if their test subjects are like me or my SO or others who strongly prefer not eating over a super low-cal day. I couldn’t do that.
But I don’t think fasting is needed. Use low-carb for some group and fasting for another with people who can do that. Or that changes results? Probably. But I don’t really care if someone is effective for me but I can’t do it without huge outside force and suffering and starving all the time…

(Windmill Tilter) #19

I give them props for the 6 month study duration. You don’t see that very often.

(Bob M) #20

Personally, I find fasting, including both limited time eating and longer fasts, to be very helpful. I’ve moved to eating 2 meals a day. Do I think it’s necessary? That’s a tough one.