A Longevity Juxtaposition: Ron Rosedale vs. Arthur de Vany


(I want abs... olutely all the bacon) #1

I read this summary from the linked blog:

“In a 10,000 foot view, you can see vegans doing better than many high-fat keto dieters, and vice-versa. Why? there is essentially no difference between them, but core ideology. Both often have gross acute nutrient deficiencies, on a quest to become chronic, and most will. It’s kinda too dumb for me to spend more than a 3-sentence paragraph on. Ok, four sentences: veganism suffers from missing dense micro-nutrients in animal products. High-fat keto suffers from a processed diet of isolated fat, and isolated fat has almost no micronutrients.”

I’m not new to LC (20+ years), but <1 year keto and on a steep learning curve. I may be in a bubble and reading only keto positive articles, this doesn’t ring true to me on the nutrients. Does anyone have links to studies that show LCHF leads to micro-nutrient deficiencies? I feel amazing on almost 8-months keto, so if this is what a deficiency feels like and how my body functions I don’t trust this from my N=1. I also have an issue with the statement that LCHF requires a processed diet of isolated fat… I don’t add a lot of fat beyond what I cook, but then I have over 100-lbs more to loose after my intial 60 lost, and more added fat is likely in my future at maintenance… but I doubt as much as this blog implies. I purchase meat from a butcher that keeps the fat caps on for me, that’s a lot of unprocessed fat! Thoughts? Any articles you’d recommend? PS, I’m a ZC lover, I could be his worst case scenario Ketoer :laughing: :sunglasses: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


(Todd Allen) #2

The criticism of keto being low in micro nutrients is ridiculous. He makes it sound like keto is only consuming MCT oil. One can readily exceed guidelines for all micro nutrients while eating keto. There are essential fats and fat soluble micro nutrients but there aren’t any essential sugars or starch soluble micro nutrients.


#3

This statement alone from the blog article tells me that whoever wrote doesn’t understand the Phinney/Volek definition of a “well-formulated ketogenic diet”, but it does sound like the classical, medical ketogenic diet prescribed for epileptics, so in the that context it would be a valid criticism, but none of us eat that way and it’s not sustainable even for epileptics - just ask the inventor of the Ketonix, Michel Lundell and “Charlie” of the Charlie Foundation and it would be great if we could ask Vilhjalmur Stefansson, but we have to reference the books where he’s mentioned.

Comments from this blog conflating the poorly-formulated, medical ketogenic diet and the well-formulated, modern ketogenic diet are as bad as those conflating diabetic ketoacidosis and nutritional ketosis.


#4

Oh dear, not this Nickoley guy again from free the animal. Dr Eenfeldt had to remove his blog link from the diet doctor site as his blog had very offensive things (extremely disrespectful towards people, both individuals and groups). He was also attacking other LCHF luminary doctors (like Eades) calling them fucktards and other disgraceful things. It seems like if you don’t agree with him on any subject, there is no need to discuss because you are simply a fucktard and he is the all knowing genius. A few months ago, I saw that he also had the balls to go on diet doctors site and leave a comment, tearing Andreas down. The guy is crazy.


(Jacquie) #5

Known about Richard for years and he doesn’t hold much credence in my book. He’s very attention-seeking and will do pretty much anything to get it. He’s quite a repulsive creature, imo.


#6

There’s a few resources linked in this Stephen Phinney talk:

Phinney makes it clear that the Inuit had far more knowledge about this than him and that there are perhaps certain ways of doing the diet we are yet to understand. Perhaps some micronutrient issues that the Inuit knew how to solve for example.

The statements about keto you quoted reveal the ignorance and bias of the author. Many ketoers eat more green veggies while keto than they did while SAD dieting. So the author clearly has never read or heard anything about the usual keto diet.

I know, as ZC, “usual keto diet” is not you. However it is relevant for you in evaluating the integrity and reliability of the article author.

You don’t have to go far to find that veganism is on progressively more and more shaky footing as more science comes in about sick vegans. Even coming from the vegan camp most are simply arguing that it’s possible to be vegan, not that it’s ideal.

For example with this article strongly argues that humans are omnivores. It’s from a vegan.

This video below from a rampant vegan crusader highlights that vegans are undernourished, even the ones supplementing as advised. It also mentions the various strange malnutrition deaths that have occurred amongst vegans over the years. To my knowledge we haven’t heard ot carnivores dropping dead like this.

Good luck.


(I want abs... olutely all the bacon) #7

Thank you @BillJay, I read The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living a while back, I obviously need to revisit it.


(I want abs... olutely all the bacon) #8

[quote=“Fiorella, post:4, topic:9569”]
The guy is crazy
[/quote] Just wow @Fiorella, I had no idea. This is deplorable.


(anonymous9) #9

This dude appears to have diagnosable mental health issues. I have never in all my life seen such vitriolic and abusive responses in a thread as from this guy. His has delusions of grandeur and is a shameless misogynist. I am disheartened that @Marty_Kendall would give this guy a credible platform in his Optimising Nutrition group. This dude should not be encouraged if he cannot restrain himself from being an abusive bully, despite how intellectual he ‘appears’ to be.


#10

Yes. I remember reading some very offensive things he wrote about women. Truly disgraceful and offensive. And his blogs are full of broken logic and biased view points. So, it is not even worth putting up with the offensive talk.


(I want abs... olutely all the bacon) #11

[quote=“yogipete, post:6, topic:9569”]
To my knowledge we haven’t heard ot carnivores dropping dead like this
[/quote] Thank you for your resource links @yogipete this is info I was seeking. I look forward to more research.


(paddy0761) #12

Vegans tend to be taurine deficient, which may be a factor in malnutrition. Thankfully, taurine deficiency leads to male infertility, so they don’t breed very successfully. Most vegans are females of childbearing age though; they tend to end up with PCOS due to a high carb diet. It’s my theory that it is insufficient taurine that makes long term vegans look drawn and haggard. It’s a malabsorption problem.
Taurine is used for the production of bile salts. If you don’t have useful bile, the nutrients may slip by poorly undigested and into the porcelain bowl?
Gregor is a career vegan btw. He doesn’t want you to read the science. he’ll do that for you, just trust him. He’s so metabolically damaged he always seems to be jogging on a treadmill to keep his weight down.


(paddy0761) #13

(Marty Kendall) #14

Here’s the leaderboard that Richard mentions in the article if you’re interested.

The top position is held by someone following a very intentional LCHF diet with lots of veggies and organ meats. The bottom two positions are held by people whose primary aim is more keto and they end up low in a wide range of nutrients. #3 is held by a vegan who is very intentional about his nutrient density but is still absent in B-12 and low in vitamin D (which he supplements). The third lowest position is held by someone following a junk food based SAD diet.

Generally my nutritional analysis of low carb diets aligns with Chapter 9 of Volek and Phinney’s Art and Science of Low Carb Performance which highlights that people on a keto approach may need to supplement with a range of minerals.

If you’re not wanting to rely primarily on supplements for minerals the Nutrient Optimiser highlights a range of whole foods that will fill gaps in the your diet. It’s been exciting to see how a number of people have used that guidance to vastly improve the quality of their diet in a few weeks with targetted guidance using their current diet as a starting point.

The consistent factor in diets that do well in the analysis is that they don’t contain process grains or sugars or foods.

For someone who is insulin resistant the priority is to normalise insulin and blood sugar by reducing the insulin load of their diet. From there I think focussing more on nutrient density is the next obvious step that seems to be really helpful.

For what it’s worth, Dr Greger works for the Humane Society (animal protection) but seems to work pretty much full time on his Nutrition Facts videos. It appears to me that his primary goal is animal welfare rather than human nutrition and he will bend the truth to fit to that outcome. I think he sets up an unnecessary dichotomy of people who eat plants vs people who eat animal based foods. The reality is most people eat some combination of both.


(Marty Kendall) #15

Sorry, seems the hyperlinks aren’t working. The leaderboard is also included at the end of this https://nutrientoptimiser.com/


#16

A nice reminder. Thank you.


(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #17

Couldn’t watch more than about 9 minutes, but I’ve always suspected that people who ate too low, or no animal fat were probably more likely to get depression and other mental conditions.

And if it’s true that vegans have the lowest cholesterol - and we know that too low cholesterol is not a good thing - well, considering that the brain consists of a large amount of cholesterol, it might seem logical that low blood cholesterol might be associated with brain-related problems.


(Marty Kendall) #18

Yeah. The link between blood cholesterol and heart disease is becoming more tenuous, however the vegans continue to cling tightly to it because it validates their position.