A Calorie is Not A Calorie - A Discussion of Thermodynamics


(Bunny) #54

But 20 grams of what? Water? Muscle? Adipose Tissue? Bone Density? What is Generating the Most Heat? What Weighs more?

The mass morphs (transfers energy around within itself) rather than loses mass irregardless of how much it weighs?

Foonotes:

[1] “…The law of conservation of mass or principle of mass conservation states that for any system closed to all transfers of matter and energy, the mass of the system must remain constant over time, as the system’s mass cannot change, so quantity can neither be added nor be removed. …” …More

[2] “…There is a scientific law called the Law of Conservation of Mass, discovered by Antoine Lavoisier in 1785. In its most compact form, it states: matter is neither created nor destroyed. …the total amount of mass and energy in the universe is constant. …” …More

[3] “…Thermoregulation: Most body heat is generated in the deep organs, especially the liver, brain, and heart, and in contraction of skeletal muscles. …” …More


(Ideom) #55

Absolutely not. Human metabolism is exothermic, on balance. There is no way around this fact.

If it’s living it’s always a thermodynamic system, no matter what.


Certainly - that’s one right there. :+1:


(Ideom) #56

I’ve noticed this too, and… :smile: There’s definitely a conspiracy at work! :smile:

“Isn’t a closed system” makes no difference. Of course physics applies. Come on, man… :crazy_face:

But what hit me was that we’ve got @ctviggen and @amwassil, both allegedly ‘against’ CICO. Then in post #23 amwassil presents an article where the conclusions warn against:

So, Bob’s argument involves saying that physical laws don’t apply, and Michael’s involves warning against thinking that. :smile: There just ain’t no pleasin’ some people… :smile::smile:


(Leroy) #57

:rofl: Have to laugh - sometimes it goes that way. Perhaps we should focus more on the real, ‘hard’ science of it?


(Bunny) #58

Hmmm? So what your saying is you are a heating element and you can change your body heat at will?

Maybe that’s why people don’t lose body fat is because as their core body temperature drops from burning body fat they can no longer oxidize body fat and why their metabolism slows down because of all that fat and protein they are eating?

So what good would counting calories do?

Really? Only if your paying attention to thermo-dynamic activity and not playing with numerology?

That’s what counting macros and calories are, they are glorified slot machines and some people are paying money for them with some apps? :slightly_smiling_face::slightly_smiling_face::slightly_smiling_face::joy::rofl::joy:


(Doug) #59

Bunny, this is indeed a “far-ranging” discussion, isn’t it. :wink:

I thought this was good, from another thread ~~>

E=mc^2

Right there’s a sweet concept, and one that took humanity a long time to get to, even as remarkably simple and elegant as it is. And very few people indeed go through their day thinking about that kind of stuff. Not many of us measuring the speed of light, eh? Doesn’t detract from Einstein’s conception.


(Bunny) #60

Interesting thing about counting calories is if you do a lot of subtraction on the amount (mass) of fat in calories…lol

The folks over at Virta Health do their calculations in Australian kJ (kilojoules) or kilocals?

image image link


(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #61

Sugar.


(Bunny) #62

But according to the physicist that’s 20 grams of mass?

Where did the sugar go?

Or what did the sugar do?

”…Einstein’s equation E = mc2 shows that energy and mass are interchangeable. The theory of special relativity explains how space and time are linked for objects that are moving at a consistent speed in a straight line. …” …More


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #63

Actually, this has been known for centuries. Increasing population height has been attributed to a diet rich in high-quality protein since long before the current nutrition guidelines.

The height and health of the American population, as compared with its European cousins, used to be attributed to the abundance of meat in the diet. I believe it may be significant that the generational height increase has leveled off since the introduction of governmental nutrition guidelines (it may also explain why the generational increase in lifespan has not only leveled off, but become a decline in recent years). Likewise, the native populations that ate an abundance of meat, such as the Plains tribes, were also known for their height and health. (The deleterious effect of their switch to the “Western” diet has been well-documented.)


(Bunny) #64

Is height or bigger stature a good thing? Too much Human Growth Hormone?

“…Men of height 175.3 cm or less lived an average of 4.95 years longer than those of height over 175.3 cm, while men of height 170.2 cm or less lived 7.46 years longer than those of at least 182.9 cm. …” …More

Some how the short people were malnutritioned and ‘deformed (small stature in height)’ because they did not eat as many animal proteins as other cultures?

Because they eat more plant protein (non-IGF-1 food), essential amino acids from grains and starches from tubers and corn?

Looks like it is the total opposite; taller stature or ‘deformity‘ and decreased life expectancy comes from excessive animal proteins? (over-nutritioned)


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #65

But that is exactly what it does mean, so what is the problem? Coca-cola, for one, uses the phrases interchangeably in its advertising, in order to claim that you can drink its sugar-water with impunity, so long as you account for the calories involved.

While these discussions are always fun, they never seem to get resolved, because the people on the various sides of the argument are not always clear about how they are using terms.

For instance, people arguing that the body’s hormonal responses to foods in the diet trump the caloric content of those foods are not saying that the First Law of Thermodynamics is being violated thereby (even though they may appear to be saying so), merely that there is more to the picture. For example, Gary Taubes makes the point that while the First Law always applies, it says nothing about the direction of causality. It may be that eating less may cause us to lose weight or—as Taubes points out—it may be that the eating less is the result, not the cause, of our being in weight-loss mode for hormonal reasons.

Taubes points out that no one claims that teenagers grow up into adults because they ate more than they expended. We are all clear that their hormones caused the weight gain and directed it to muscle and bone, while causing fat loss in certain places (particularly in boys) and the deposit of fat in certain places (particularly in girls). The fact that pubescent children are eating machines is the result of their growth, not the cause. He points out that it might make sense to apply the same logic to adult weight gain and loss, as well. Along the same lines, Phinney recounts the experience of one of his research subjects, a woman who lost half the amount of weight of the other women in the study. A DEXA scan revealed that she had lost the same amount of fat but had gained some lean tissue at the same time.

Thus it is clear, from both research and experience, that whether we gain or lose muscle, bone, or fat depends strongly on the dietary context. For example, the body tends to hold on to its fat stores until fairly late in the process of starvation. This was most clearly demonstrated during World War II by the victims sent to the German concentration camps, who didn’t start to look truly emaciated until they were within a few months of death from starvation. There appear to be mechanisms that spread out the damage from lack of adequate food intake, so that no one area of the body alone takes the hit.

This is part of the reason that eating a ketogenic diet to satiety allows the body to shed excess stored fat. The mechanisms that control appetite appear to take into account the source of the calories expended, so that both dietary and stored fat can be metabolised. And this all makes sense, because for the vast majority of the two million years of human evolutionary history, nobody knew about calories or macronutrients, and yet our ancestors managed somehow to avoid the metabolic diseases that plague us today.

Also, my impression is that your objection to the article by professors Feinman and Fine, which started this whole thread, appears to be a misunderstanding of where they are coming from, and of how their point fits into the scholarly conversation. I tend to think that the article ought to have been unnecessary, but it points out a logical inconsistency in arguments often used in scholarly papers and thereby serves a purpose. As Taubes points out, the difficulty of performing randomised, controlled trials on human subjects leads to shortcuts and sloppy thinking that would not be tolerated in any other area of scientific endeavour.


(Doug) #66

We pretty much stay within a Newtonian world, however, for our eating and metabolism. We’re not really converting mass to energy, for example, as with nuclear fission, fusion, etc.


(Doug) #67

Huh.

Good one, Bob. :smile:

:roll_eyes:


(Bunny) #68

However, adipose tissue weighs more than the lipid droplet it stores which is mostly protein but to burn protein:

”…The body rarely burns protein as its sole fuel source, and when it does it is usually under conditions of starvation. Interestingly, when no carbohydrate is present in the diet, the body will use the amino acid backbones of protein to form glucose (a carbohydrate) in order to supply the brain with adequate energy. …” …More

…so it is said?

Then you have this:

“…What Is Starvation Ketosis? “If the body depletes glycogen stores enough, it will move on to burning fat to fuel the body and the brain,” Dr. Metzgar said. When someone isn’t eating for a long enough period of time, their glycogen stores get depleted, so the body has two choices: burn stored fat, or break down the protein in muscles for fuel. The body will turn to fat before muscle, Dr. Metzgar explained, and that is when someone enters starvation ketosis.

Although intermittent fasting and the keto diet are often done in conjunction with each other, in order for starvation ketosis to kick in, Dr. Metzgar said someone would need to fast for a week to burn fat for fuel, which is obviously not recommended.

“Starvation ketosis is not something to strive for and can actually result in loss of lean muscle mass, so I would not recommend long-term fasting to reach this starvation state if one’s goal is to achieve ketosis,” she said. …” .…More

Hmmmm?


(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #69

That is totally demonstrably false…


(Bunny) #70

Do you have a source on this, I would like to read it?

Also keep in mind we are talking about starvation processes?


(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #71

Are you kidding?

Have you heard about the Keto diet?

The quote said " in the absence of carbohydrates in the diet "… etc…

The brain and everything else does just fine in the absence of carbohydrates in the diet…

The absence of food ( starvation ) would be a problem…

Finding cites would be a total waste of my time…


(Hagen) #72

This is both a non-sequitur and apparent insanity.


(Bunny) #73

Really? I have the research to back it?

Give me a sec!

Data:

[1] Analysis of adipose tissue in relation to body weight loss in man

[2] Adipose tissue density, estimated adipose lipid fraction and whole body adiposity in male cadavers