A calorie ≠ a calorie, but is a carb = a carb?


(German Ketonian) #1

Hi everyone,

just a quick question: often I hear people saying that you can’t have certain foods because “they aren’t keto”. But what about, if I manage to hit my macros, despite consuming, say, a small potatoe? Consider the following case: On day 1, I eat ZC, except a small potatoe or a small piece of bread, totalling 20 total or net carbs. On day 2, I only have “keto-friendly” food amounting to the same total or net carbs (20g): for example a bunch of salad and other greens, or some nice macadamias, pecans and brazil nuts.

Will the first scenario actually impact my ketones more than scenario 2? Is there science out there supporting of disproving the “keto(un)friendly” theory? In other words: Is a carb always = a carb?

Thanks and best

Simon


#2

Tough question. I find it interesting- would like to think carb is carb- but I surely wouldn’t know the science well enough.

Along the same vein- I have wondered about the “20gm macro”. Do you know, Have you heard anything about significance of consuming all your carbs at one setting or dispersing them throughout the day? I hear a lot of 20gm per day- and wonder how that amount and timeframe was derived.


(Crippie) #3

I have wondered this as well.

This sounds just like my friend and me. I stay away from those keto unfriendly foods you mentioned. usually hit around 10-20g carbs from normal keto food. My friend however will make sure he uses all the carbs he has, eat zero carb all day and then have a small scoop of ice cream with 20g carbs in it all at once.

I don’t know the science behind it but I know we are both still dropping pounds and feeling better, so I think it is fine. The way I see it I avoid having all those carbs all at once. I’m fairly sure it will make your insulin spike more than if you only had 5g every 4 hours.

It may also depend on how insulinogenic the food is, some carbs will raise your insulin more than other carbs, I know potatoes are some of the worst, same with whole grain bread. So I would say a carb does not always equal a carb in that sense, but everyone is different and if your body can handle it without getting deranged and going off on carb cravings like mine would then go for it.


#4

The general rule is that carbs should be coming from green leafy vegetables. The idea is to get a ton of macronutrients per carb you consume (kale, broccoli, spinach, etc). The glycemic index of green veggies is low and in general foods containing a lot of fiber have way less impact on blood sugar than starchy or sugary foods.

You are essentially asking if 20 grams of carbs from broccoli in a day is the same as 20 grabs of carbs from a doughnut (to make the examples extreme). The answer to that question is HELL NO! Your body responds very differently to these foods.

It’s an interesting question but I can tell you from my experience that some carbs are way more forgiving than others. Remember bread and potatoes are some of the main reasons most of us are here in the first place.


(German Ketonian) #5

@Rian that sounds absolutely reasonable! The body most likely will react differently due to the glycemic/insulin effect. Makes a lot of sense, thank you!


#6

There is something called an insulin index that someone created for their Phd. Do a search you will find it.

I have thought about this as well and concluded it is a slippery slope and one potato will lead to another from the spike. I am much better off knowing what is off limits. I did take the tiniest sliver of a cake one of my kids made (a bite) so I could try it to be polite after a full keto meal. It was fine but I am talking the size of my fingernail not a small potato. I think it depends what you eat it with as well. I bite of donut with a steak and olive oil is different that a bite by itself.

Personally I have trouble being in ketosis from nuts and berries and whatever sauces are in the meats that I eat that I did not take into account. I think unless you are very careful and really track and know your food sources, most people are usually over 20 anyway


#7

This is absurd to me. He’s passing up the opportunity to eat so many delicious nuts, veggies, etc. so he can have a scoop of ice cream!?!? While respecting that different things work for different people at some point we need to realize that we are trying to heal our mitochondria and dramatically improve our health. We aren’t just doing this as a cheap-trick to shed a fed pounds. I’m not anyway. Have him read The Case Against Sugar, he will learn how sugar is especially damaging to metabolism.


#8

The body definitely reacts differently. As @Saphire mentioned, take a peek at an insulin index. Also, what is consumed in conjunction with other things matters. It can get complicated but a blood glucose meter can be effective at seeing what the body is doing after consuming certain foods. They are super cheap also.


(Damon Chance) #9

Others have said that carb != carb at least not always. Its actually the same reason that a calorie != a calorie. Its the impact it has on your hormone levels.

Someone took the time to study the nutritional values of different foods and compare that to their insulin response and then made a list ranking them for different outcomes.


(Crippie) #10

yea… me too… I give him crap for it all the time! But he has always been a weird eater. He is someone who could literally have 2 eggs scrambled up with 4 frozen meatballs and cheese and have that for every meal for months on end and be perfectly fine with it.

For him its not really a case of doing zero carbs so he can have it. But more so that he has it because he happened to be zero carbs that day. Ive had conversations with him where he is literally like " Oh i only had 1 carb today, I can have this after dinner"

I don’t get it. I love veggies too much, and variety


(*Rusty* Instagram: @Rustyk61) #11

This pretty much answers the question.


#12

Keto for weight loss vs keto for healing mitochondria can be different things to different people. It’s like eating patured eggs and grassfed beef vs canola oil and cheap feed lot chicken. Both might get you into ketosis but at some level they have different responses in the body.

There are a couple books that helped me see past the noise and realize that paying for more quality can make a huge difference. Both are books I really enjoyed: Fat for Fuel by Mercola & Primal Fat Burner by Gedgaudas.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #13

The concept of glycemic load—not index!—is the relevant one here. There are two issues involved: glucose metabolism and fructose metabolism. You want to keep your glucose low, so as to avoid insulin spikes that will interfere with your ability to metabolize fat. Sustained high insulin levels are one of the major causes of metabolic disease.

The metabolism of fructose is also something you want to keep in check as far as possible, as well, but for different reasons. Fructose does not stimulate an insulin response, because it is not metabolized the same way as glucose. Instead of being burned by almost every cell in the body, fructose is metabolized only in the liver. The metabolic pathway used is the same one as for ethanol, and sudden high doses of fructose have the same effect on the liver (and cause the same kinds of damage) as a couple of stuff drinks. This damage is another part of the metabolic disease accompany the Western diet.

Since sucrose (table sugar) is a glucose molecule bonded to a fructose molecule, it hits the body with a double whammy, especially when eaten in the quantities present in the standard American diet. Simple starches, which are broken down into glucose in the digestive tract, are thus somewhat better; they don’t cause liver damage, although your insulin still spikes. Dr. Lustig recommends foods high in fiber, for the reason that the fiber slows the rate of absorption to something that our bodies can handle without too much stress.


(Mark Rhodes) #14

I was listening recently to the 2KD early podcast with Dr. Fung and he was stating that his patients that do NOT do keto do eat All Bran which is a low insulin responder on this list and I wondered if you knew Saphire if Dr. Fung took his cue from this index?


(Duncan Kerridge) #15

Not that I want to eat like donut guy but to play devil’s advocate would one insulin spike a day really make all that much difference? We’re talking 20g of carbs here, compare that with the 300g consumed by the average American each day.

Obviously if you’re T2 or have similar issues then it might not be so great but for someone who’s fairly metabolically healthy my guess is the body would handle 20g fairly quickly and without too much or any damage.


(Damon Chance) #16

If you aren’t Insulin Resistant and are only eating once a day then I agree that the impact is minimal and will probably be blunted by mixing a lot of fat in with the carbs. However, if you are already insulin resistant then the spike will be much greater and will more likely lead to the bad effects of increased insulin.


#17

I would say the vast majority of people on here who are not athletes or body builders will not help themselves by allowing for the 20g spike. If someone is 25 and ripped, then yes it will not matter. If you are 50 and 130lbs overweight, it will not help you. Fung’s premise is the more times you spike insulin, the worse you are metabolically

@marklifestyle, I have no idea what Fung intended but if you look at the link posted by @d_to_the_c they mention all bran as being fairly low insulin


(Erin Macfarland ) #18

Good question!


#19

Yes, many lose this perspective. Perhaps not ideal but if someone isn’t dealing with severe insulin resistance it’ll hardly matter plus not all sugar “spikes” insulin and I think that verb is so overused when discussing insulin so as to be distracting at times.


(Sjur Gjøstein Karevoll) #20

Insulin serves many important functions in the body such as stimulating the anti-oxidant defense system and sex hormone production. It’s not just a way to regulate blood glucose, it is a signal that you have a lot of highly versatile short-term energy with the implication that you can afford to spend more effort on long-term wellness rather than short-term survival. As such it doesn’t make sense that avoiding high insulin at all costs is desirable for everyone as you would be depriving yourself of the benefits. For those of us who are insulin resistant (which I think is an unfortunate term) it’s a different matter and avoiding many (but not all) foods that spike insulin is a good idea, but you are still depriving yourself of the benefits of insulin when you do this.