A basic question about carnivore nutrient imbalance

(Karim Wassef) #16

Does bone broth count? :slight_smile:


I would say yes if they dissolve enough to be useful. I make gritty stuff myself and reuse the bones.


Yes. Any form of calcium supplementation plus animal based fats for fat soluble vitamins, and romping in the sunshine. Preferably morning sunshine so their owners get the blue light wave benefit as well. But also if puppies could chew bones properly to access the minerals. They don’t get their adult teeth fully emerged until about 5 months old. Bone chewing is just exploratory until then. Some small toy breeds are incapable. Bone broth definitely could and would form part of an antidote.


That is great picture building information Karim. Magnesium and Vitamin K2 are so important to make sure calcium goes into bones and teeth. Good points.

I think I have to present my question in a different way.

@Screenack was guiding me down the path I was looking for with the quote about phosphoric acid, buffering and calcium.

The addendum question is: Do people that go onto the carnivore diet ever just eat an exclusively muscle meat only version of the diet? The Steak Only Diet?

It would be tempting.


An attempt at shepherding the investigation.


There has been at least one 30 day steak challenge I can remember.

Forum links here:
Brenda and Donna
Podcast about results

It does seem an overly constrictive restraint for longer periods of time, but I’m sure some people will try it due to the convenience of steak.

Dave addressed the trigs issue in that podcast and a recent one. It’s possible to elevate trigs (somewhat) with a coffee habit.

(less is more, more or less) #22

Carnivores emphasize “snout to tail” for complete nutrition. Offals are more mineral dense than muscle meat, and bone broth, and all that. I mean everything. One podcast suggested that cervelle de veau included. I mean, eyes, even. Sorry, that’s a bridge I’m comfortable never crossing. Hopefully, we stop at fur. :wink:

They suggest this is why wild carnivores go straight to the gizzards, since getting muscle meat isn’t as scarce.

(Karim Wassef) #23



so in my view - benefits > risks

(Elizabeth ) #24

none of the long-term carnivores that I’m in touch with 10 years plus eat nose to tail. They just don’t eat organ meat and they don’t supplement and they’re fine


That was a fantastic episode. Richard answering listener mail was awesome. Then the discussion about blood results. The methionine toxicity information was a gold nugget, when methionine and glycine can get out of balance when not enough connective tissue is eaten (or too much muscle meat).

(Bunny) #26

Balance of the two may not matter and additionally calcium intake may not be necessary?

Only in the presence of high glucose or a high sugar diet; calcium always opposes phosphorus in the presence of high blood glucose? (almost behaves as if it were magnetic)

calcium<===[high glucose/high sugar diet]===>phosphorus

phosphorus==>[low glucose/low sugar diet]<==calcium is absorbed back into the bones and teeth. :tooth::bone:

Vitamin K & D <=== the transporter shuttles


[1] “…In diabetic patients, an increase in salivary flow with unchanged salivary glucose concentration and glucose excretion rate were observed under the same experimental conditions. Salivary glucose concentration and excretion were much higher in diabetic patients than in control subjects, whether in unstimulated or stimulated saliva. No significant correlation between glycemia and either glucose concentration or glucose excretion rate was found in the diabetic patients, whether in unstimulated or stimulated saliva. …” …More

[2] Glucose estimation in the salivary secretion of diabetes mellitus patients

[3] Human salivary sugar clearance after sugar rinses and intake of foodstuffs.

[4] Besides the benefits of a low sugar diet i.e. keto, you can also REGENERATE tooth enamel and skip the dentist doing this:

DO NOT DRINK: swish (1/2 cup or less) and rinse (push solution through teeth & gums) for 5 minutes a day:

2 Teaspoons of Trisodium Phosphate (TSP), Fine Crystals, 99.9% Pure Food Grade (your choice?)

6 Teaspoons of Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate)

To 16-24 oz. of filtered water, place in a bottle and shake thoroughly (everytime you use it) and store!

Note: Also tightens up loose teeth! Better at preventing cavities when they start to form!

RESULTS: you will notice cavities disappearing (depending on depth of decay) with doing this and may notice little black specs and other particle when you spit so don’t be alarmed!

Dentists will hate you!

[5] ”…Vitamin K is found in high concentrations in the salivary gland where it breaks up dental plaque.…More

[6] ”…The ability of vitamin K-related compounds to inhibit acid production in isolated saliva had no relationship to their vitamin activity, and the most effective of these compounds…” ”…Activator X (Vitamin K) also influences the composition of saliva. Price found that if he collected the saliva of individuals immune to dental caries and shook it with powdered bone or tooth meal, phosphorus would move from the saliva to the powder; by contrast, if he conducted the same procedure with the saliva of individuals susceptible to dental caries, the phosphorus would move in the opposite direction from the powder to the saliva. Administration of the Activator X concentrate to his patients consistently changed the chemical behavior of their saliva from phosphorus-accepting to phosphorus-donating… ”…Price used the combination of high-vitamin cod liver oil and high-Activator X butter oil as the cornerstone of his protocol for reversing dental caries. This protocol not only stopped the progression of tooth decay, but completely reversed it without the need for oral surgery by causing the dentin to grow and remineralize, sealing what were once active caries with a glassy finish. One 14-year-old girl completely healed 42 open cavities in 24 teeth by taking capsules of the high-vitamin cod liver oil and Activator X concentrate three times a day for seven months. …More

[7] ”…Saliva production is the exocrine function of the salivary glands. The buffering capacity of saliva is critical to neutralizing the oral environment. This minimizes the de-mineralization of enamel and enhances its re-mineralization. K2, such as that found in fermented cheese, improves salivary buffering through its influence on calcium and inorganic phosphates secreted. Data collected from several selected primitive cultures on the cusp of civilization demonstrated the difference in dental health due to diet. …More

Metabolic syndrome as a latent form of scurvy? Vitamin C. Loose teeth. Frozen shoulder

Hmm… interesting. Since going carnivore (day 17) from keto (4 years) I am craving liver, bones with cartilage and collagen like crazy. Eating liver every day, even as I snack and believe me I was one to hate the taste of liver in any form. I was surprised myself at the changes in taste I am experiencing since starting on carni.


How long have you been carnivore and how many DEXA did you have and at what intervals. Don’t mean to be inquisitive, but I am really interested about carnivore and risk of weakened bones. Thank you

(Karim Wassef) #29

I went mostly carnivore for 8 weeks. Here’s my thread with results:


Ok. Thank you. I’ll have a look this weekend


As an approx 18 month long carnivore, I am drawn to eating nose to tail, for the variety, the nutrition, and out of respect for what I am eating. My Western squickability currently precludes me eating brawn, tripe and eyes. The rest is fair game. I eat roe (lumpfish, salmon and cod), marrow and add butter to compensate for lack of brawn.

The days I eat liver, I feel physically and emotionally better, but cannot pin down why.
Several consecutive days of eating liver and my appetite for it switches off.

Sorry, I know this is somewhat off topic, because this is a discussion of the science, not appetite.

However, before we had measuring scales, studies and names for the different minerals, we were all eating to appetite (and availability). I think we have some very deep instinctual guidance on nutrition - and that is going to vary from person to person, depending on age, food quality, and our own personal needs. Of course, the trick is to listen to it, and not obsess about numbers.

My question is whether people who ‘just eat muscle meat’ are listening to their own bodies? Or have they switched the volume down to zero because they are fixated on some ideal of dietary purity? Not for me to judge. The best indication is their long term health, and hopefully IF there are pitfalls and malnutrition, then they will identify and adapt before the damage is irreversible. If, after 20+ years they are still thriving, well, it obviously works for them.


How do you prepare tripe? I tend to eat nose to tail too and bought some tripe but not sure how to cook it. Any ideas? Thanks


I can’t stand the stuff!
Used to watch my mother eat it, and the smell was enough to put me off for life!

But there are quite a few recipes out there



Just listening to Dr. Chris Masterjohn on the Peak Human podcast he is getting stuck right into calcium metabolism.

From the show notes:

  • The role of vitamin D in preventing leaching calcium from your bones

  • The interactions of vitamin D with vitamin K and vitamin A in preventing calcification in soft-tissues (ie. anything but bones and teeth)

  • If you don’t balance vitamin D with vitamins A and K you may be at risk for soft-tissue calcification (e.g. kidney stones) and this is a danger of having too much vitamin D

  • You can read about is theory here: https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/from-seafood-to-sunshine-a-new-understanding-of-vitamin-d-safety/

  • Carnivore shares a lot in common with veganism by cutting out a whole group of foods and the risks are the same because you are cutting out certain nutrient profiles

  • You are vulnerable to getting too much of something on the carnivore diet

  • Why eating too much protein could be bad

  • Carnivores are also vulnerable to not getting enough manganese and vitamin C

  • There’s no longitudinal data on carnivore diets and the life-long effects and there is no human population that traditionally eats a carnivore diets

  • Weston Price looked for vegans and only found cannibals: https://www.westonaprice.org/weston-price-looked-for-vegans-but-found-only-cannibals/

  • All traditional diets emphasize animal products for health but they also all eat plants

  • Even at the extremes of the arctic where plants barely grow, they try very hard to get plants

  • Theoretically, if you insist on being carnivore then the best way to avoid nutrient deficiencies you would need to eat nose to tail, there are no nutrients you can’t get

  • What is in an animal’s tissues is a snapshot of what that animal needed in that tissue at the time it died

  • Eating nose to tail and shellfish (especially mussels for manganese) and eating fish is probably going to prevent you from nutrient deficiencies if carnivore


If I was carnivore, I’d do Nose to Tail, hands down.

The state of the science on carnivore is still unsettled (anectodal reports aside). So, at this point, this choice within carnivore is basically the food equivalent of Pascal’s Wager:

I’d rather be “wrong” in having eaten whole higher-quality animals, offal, bones, etc. than Muscle Meat only. Stated differently, I can wrap my brain around why it’s a worse idea to do Muscle Meat only versus Nose to Tail.