TBH @MarkGossage thatās why I tend not to give it any thought and just do what I know works for me, but when people adamantly claim calories HAVE to be restricted to get results, I canāt help myself because I know how much better I felt when I stopped restricting.
70% fat,25% protein ,5% cabs macro rations. is that in grams or calories?
Anniegirl9
(LeeAnn Brooks)
#88
How about this:
Itās relevent in that the body will expend energy equal to energy consumed, but itās irrelevent to weight loss because the energy spent will not always translate to weight loss and thereās no way to control the bodyās process to ensure weight loss.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#89
Well, those people are claiming that the calorie restriction is causing the weight loss, whereas the hormonal model claims that it is the weight loss that is causing the reduction in calories. See the difference? I would further claim that any calorie reduction comes about automatically when we eat fat to satiety; there is no need for us to count calories, because the body takes care of everything.
@Anniegirl9 Thatās more like it. And you can say exactly the same about weight gain, too. That will really mess with their heads.
Callisto
#90
Hey Gabe, I donāt know that anyone is arguing that our bodies are exempt from the laws of nature. Speaking only for myself, Iām arguing that there is an inscrutably complex sequence of biochemical processes involved (some of which appear to require a higher CI in order to increase CO even further) and also an inability to measure CO with any useful degree of accuracy. The amount of measurable (at least for now) CO appears not to correlate in a cause-effect fashion with CI, so much as with the nutrient composition of those calories.
ā¦if youāre losing mass of any kind. (Thatās my nod to physics, the last one youāll get. 
)
gabe
(Gabe āNo Dogma, Only Science Please!ā )
#92
In the interests of getting to 100, I will add the following: I think we are all closer to consensus than we were. I think thereās some misunderstanding about what, precisely, the Carbohydrate-Insulin Model means; it seems as if some people are labouring under the mistaken belief (I donāt mean to be rude, but it is) that the very idea of calories/energy, or even any discussion of calories in vs calories out is a complete negation of keto/LCHF.
There is no question that, to gain weight, energy consumed must be greater than energy spent. The reverse is true for weight loss.
The way Taubes puts it is that this is the explanation that the health authorities have been giving for decades, and itās like saying āBill Gates is rich because he spent less than he earned.ā Thatās obvious, and indeed itās a facile observation ā the question is WHY did he earn more than he spent?
Our question is as follows: of COURSE you must consume less than you expend to lose weight. But whatās the mechanism? Thatās what the Carbohydrate-Insulin Model of obesity addresses, and thatās where hormones come in. Again, as @PaulL has said, and as Taubes endlessly repeats: we donāt get fat because we eat more. We eat more because weāre getting fat.
On this, there is total consensus here, and with great respect to those of you who think Paul and I are āpro-CICOā ā weāre not. We completely agree with you; we are just clarifying that the Carbohydrate-Insulin Model of obesity doesnāt violate the very idea of calories in-calories out. It just doesnāt. It simply adds texture to it (it explains WHY) and it adds nuance (a calories ISNāT a calorie ā because each macronutrient, and perhaps even different subtypes of each macronutrient, impacts our hormones differently.)
I think Iām with Paul when he says that he canāt go on debating this any further. If people here would like to believe that theyāre losing weight while their calories consumed exceed what theyāre expending, they can go right ahead. But this is by definition impossible. What they are experiencing is reduced hunger and/or increased BMR and/or some other metabolic process that has changed due to what theyāre consuming. Theyāre not experiencing a reversal of the first law of thermodynamics.
Personally I am glad weāve been having this discussion because itās returned my thinking to my central concern for the past 18 months: why am I stalled? Itās good that weāre getting back to first principles, because the answer must be that my BMR is too low and/or my insulin is getting spiked. Iāve examined this in a number of other threads (though Iāve tried to keep it recently to this one) and the prime culprits, after ātoo many carbs,ā are probably my overconsuming protein and my feeding window being too late.
Iām not sure if the thread has much more staying power; happy to continue the discussion if so. I want to thank you all for the opportunity to clarify my understanding of the science, and, glancing back at the OP, I hope the original poster now knows that if heās going to count macros (donāt!) then the rule of thumb 70/20/10 (or whatever) split is macronutrient calories, not grams!
EDIT: tagging @richard and @carl because I think this topic got particularly interesting!
davee77
(Larsen)
#93
The gravity is just a big mass that bend space and time, the sun is so much bigger than the earth, so it bend the space and time around it. To stay in that analogy, because of gravity there is life forms on earth. No! It is required for the earth to cycle around the sun, but it is not why there is life on earth.
As I said you are of course right, as a system we output exactly the amount of energy we get in. But again, it is not relevant when you talk weight loss. Your weight is determined by how much fat the body decides to store, and how much it use, and that is not determined by how much energy you put into the system. I know it would be so easy, and that is why it is so appealing.
KBG
(Khara)
#94
Thank you. This is well articulated for me and will be helpful in talking with anyone who doesnāt have a basic understanding of Keto. The reason keto works for me is first because of what I put into my body. My calorie count for the day is a result of the what that I put in and thus secondary. Itās a reversal of what I was taught which was to consider calories first. Ironic that a calorie deficit could be the result of eating ad libitum (within the restraints of Keto) while not thinking about calories at all.
gabe
(Gabe āNo Dogma, Only Science Please!ā )
#95
Right ā itās not determined only by how much energy you put into the system, would be a more accurate way of stating it. But certainly overconsumption is a determinant, as far as we can tell given the present state of the science.
Callisto
#96
Yeah, I agree this is an important caveat. Iāve never thought about the fact that I havenāt seen any actual studies (I mean n > 1) on how much fat someone has to eat to gain body fat when on a severely carb-restricted diet. For some people it appears theoretical, while others swear from their own experience that they already know what it is and they have crossed it before. Have there been any such studies? I suspect that at the extreme levels, even things like small changes in insulin can have an effect so it would have to be a really rigorous study keeping track of all that.
davee77
(Larsen)
#97
That seems logical, but can you show me the science? Afak some bigger tests shows that if you eat more fat than you need, but is fat adapted, and do IF. Then you actually still lose weight.
Because you burn body fat while you fast, actually raises the metabolism while you eat more fat than needed, and donāt store the fat because of the low insulin.
Brenda
(8 year Ketogenic Veteran)
#98
Sorry. The word ācaloriesā passed before me and I had to check and see where I was.
TL;DR
Donāt be a CICOpath. That is all.
Carry on
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#99
I doubt it, because it is so hard to get studies done that show the health benefits of keto.
Partly thatās because people arenāt willing to fund anything āoff-the-wall,ā and partly itās because, believe it or not, it is unethical to give people too much fat, because we know how bad that is for them.
Nina Teicholz noted this in her book: it is not even possible to do a study to prove that fat is bad for us . . . because ethics boards all know that fat is bad for us, lol!
tdean
(Terence Dean)
#102
Weight-loss is measured by scales normally but Phinney did an experiment with a group where he locked them in a controlled environment for 6 weeks and had them on a Keto program. They all lost around 14lbs on average except for one female who only lost 7lbs. She blamed the experiment for ruining her metabolism, weeks later when Phinney was able to analyze their urine samples, they discovered that she had actually added 7lbs of lean muscle. According to him this woman had been doing multiple dieting models for years and had what he called sarcopenic diet syndrome. In her case the body wanted to put on muscle as well as lose fat. So what people see on the scales does not necessarily explain what is going on in their bodies, it can be more complex than that.
MarkGossage
(bulkbiker)
#103
So if I put in post 99 hereā¦ then someone can come along and tell me Iām wrong and we can get to 100ā¦
gabe
(Gabe āNo Dogma, Only Science Please!ā )
#105
100 posts ā well done guys!
Seriously, it bothers me that itās controversial here to state a basic scientific fact: if you put energy into a system, that energy MUST go somewhere. Donāt like the word calories? (Iām looking at you @Brenda!) Thatās fine ā letās call it energy.
Ketosis does not magically take your energy intake and magically make it disappear.
Pick your output ā body heat, body activity, reduced efficiency in bodily processes/other ways of raising your basal metabolic rate. One or more of these must be going up if youāre increasing your energy intake. Period! (Or, Iāll grant you, perhaps itās not being metabolized, and therefore effectively bypasses the system.)
Iām sure we will eventually understand the complex biochemical processes going on inside a human body being fed a LCHF diet. In the meantime, I am 100% certain that the first law of thermodynamics will apply while we still donāt understand those processes and will continue to apply once we do learn them.
I find it bemusing that a community so insistent on the maxim āshow me the scienceā can insist that the first law of thermodynamics doesnāt apply to metabolism or the human body. The mind boggles.
Bless you all, we reached over 100 posts. Mic drop!
Brenda
(8 year Ketogenic Veteran)
#106
LOL. Up your fat, which will increase your metabolismā¦ then fast. Watch What Happens.
Youāre welcome