5am and I have been crying for an hour

(Liz Santiago) #62

I am not stressed or anything like that. I have been fasting for the past week and 1/2 and only eating once. I lost 1 pound so I am 211 but the problem is that no matter what I do, I go from 210 to 211 to 212 and back again. I have done 3 meals, 2 meals , 1 meal, fasting and nothing has moved me from there. O am doing the fasting and 1 meal for maybe 1 month but if I don’t move from this I will stop keto and for a few weeks and see what happens since this is the only thing I have not tried.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #63

Dr. Phinney says in his “Troubleshooting a Ketogenic Diet” lecture that he advises people in your situation to try two things:

  1. The first is to eat less carbohydrate.

  2. If that doesn’t help, the next thing to try is eating more fat.

Under no circumstances, he says, should people eat more carbohydrate.

(Liz Santiago) #64

Paul, I have been eating 1 meal a day . That meal has been 4oz of salmon, broccoli, cauliflower, cheese, lettuce, red onions, bacon pieces, and 2 tbs ranch. when I break the fast I drink 2 cups of coffee with 1 tbs of butter. I am using MTC pills and cook the meal with butter. The only other thing I drink is green tea. I have eaten that for the past 7 days and today I weight myself and was 212.6 so the pound I lost gained again even though I had eaten the same thing. When I measure my ketones in blood I get .6 to 1. I honestly think that maybe I have been too long doing keto and it just not working for me any more.

(Michael) #65

Hi Liz. You have received many suggestions all meant to help. As I have posted, I believe your RMR and thyroid have been destroyed from chronic calorie restriction and a lack of insulin signalling. My advice stands, and as noted, most people trying to lose weight continue to try and eat less, stressing the body into thinking it is starving. It is hard to eat more, increase your RMR and then lose weight as it is counter intuitive and goes against the incorrect eat less move more philosophy. I hope things can get sorted.

#66

Eat less (more like as little as possible) move more is actually the perfect advice for me (if one tells me how on Earth to be able to do it) - but I never eat TOO little. Over a pound of fatty pork, some eggs and dairy, that is a decent sized meal for my OMAD. (It rarely happens though.)
4oz salmon, some bacon and little butter (the vegs are nothing), that sounds starving to me, honestly - maybe there are things and calories I don’t see and we are all different but still, it’s tiny! It is not good for the vast majority of us, to eat this little.

@liz_santiago, how did you eat before I wonder, what macros did you use?
Your initial fat-loss seems extremely high (unless it was very much water weight?), it’s usually not healthy though it may be for people with enough fat to lose (and probably being the right type, I never could have a decent deficit but was happy with my small one while it lasted).
So maybe your metabolism slowed down? And you should focus on quicken it again even if that means lack of fat-loss for some while and maybe even gain…? I am not familiar with these things.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #67

That looks like a starvation-level diet. No wonder things aren’t working for you. You need far more protein than that, and enough fat to supply your body’s energy needs. The reason you are not losing fat is that your body is trying to hang on to its reserves so as to get you safely through the famine.

The key to keto (catchy, huh?) is minimising carbohydrate intake, so as to keep insulin low, but even when insulin is low enough, the body will still not shed fat during a famine, if it can avoid doing so.

Your ketones’ being between 0.6 and 1.0 shows that you are indeed in ketosis. So that is good. But for your body to be willing to shed more fat, you will need to be giving it enough food for it to be comfortable doing so. Many, many forum members have reported that their fat loss did not begin until they started eating more, not less, paradoxical as that may sound. That is because what we eat dictates a hormonal response by the body that can trump how much we eat. The body increases and decreases its basal metabolic rate to compensate for too little or “too much” food, and this is not accounted for in the standard bad diet advice.

If you start eating a more reasonable amount of food, your body will take advantage and may well put on some muscle and strengthen your bones. This will increase the number on the scale, which will probably freak you out. But this is the ketogenic diet working as designed. I grant you that our cultural conditioning is pretty strong, and “eat less, move more” (which is actually a recipe for perpetual hunger) is deeply engrained in the common “wisdom” as the only way to lose “weight.” On top of that, using “weight” as a euphemism for “fat” only increases the confusion, and I put it to you that you want your bone and muscle to increase, and that the only “weight” you actually want to lose is fat weight.

I hope this all makes sense.

#68

But isn’t it very typical for keto? People automatically eat less and they get more energetic (I envy them).
Of course it matters that it’s not forced, very much. I don’t even fully understand people who force little food on them, it’s so foreign from me, completely impossible. But unless I manage to eat less than my lowest maintenance level, I never lose fat, very logically so I keep trying to eat less (while keeping satiated all day long, I do that on every woe, calories be damned, satiation is way more important for me than fat-loss but both are). But NEVER in a way that results in low-key starvation, even if I could manage to do it while feeling well (but my body is smarter than that and would complain). Health trumps fat-loss.
And it’s pretty well-known even for simple CICOers that going too low-cal is a bad idea.

(I am actually open to lose fat while eating much but I did that so many times on various diets and of course I never lost any so that can’t be the way. I just don’t think I need to eat below X kcal to lose fat as it’s obviously not that simple even for me. Just almost :slight_smile: Anyway, my calorie intake is all over the place, no way I could stay below 2000 for long. So I just do my best and we will see. I am super patient, I weigh more than when I first went keto many years ago. The journey is fun and my body is pleased with me. And its stupid fat.)

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #69

No. The point of a ketogenic diet is to eat in a way that keeps insulin low, so that any excess stored fat becomes available to be metabolised. The point of the standard dietary advice is that it doesn’t matter what we eat, and we should control our “weight” by eating less and moving more—in other words, we should do what we can to make ourselves hungry and to stay hungry all the time.

A ketogenic diet, on the other hand, should be eaten to satiety, which means that hunger is not part of this way of eating. Of course, when people eat to satiety, the appetite hormones generally set the appetite at a level that allows both dietary and stored fat to be metabolised—and because insulin is low (from lack of carbohydrate), it no longer interferes with the appetite hormones and no longer traps fatty acids in the adipose tissue. This means that the body’s total energy needs will be supplied from both dietary fat and excess stored fat. Therefore, what we eat is more important than total calories. Dr. Phinney has data to show that abundant dietary fat stimulates fatty-acid metabolism, which is another reason not to restrict calories intentionally.

So if dietary intake is less than energy need on a ketogenic diet eaten to satiety, that is because the body is in fat-loss mode, not because we are deliberately depriving our body of energy. When deprived of calories, the body responds by going into “famine” mode, in which it restricts access to stored fat, so as to be able to keep going until the end of the famine, if possible. And as Dr. Jason Fung points out, the body’s response to diminished calories is very different from its response to fasting (0 calories).

(Edith) #70

You may want to look into Dr. Ted Naiman’s PE Diet. He believes in the protein leverage hypothesis. Our bodies need a certain amount of protein a day and we will keep eating until we get enough protein. If your food is diluted with too much fat and carb, we will keep eating until we get all the protein we need, regardless of the calories.

I’m not saying you are eating too much. I, like the others, believe you are eating too little, especially protein. But, you may want to looking into the PE Diet method and work on getting all the protein you need. Your body and you may find that less stressful. Also, it requires more energy to process protein than fat or carbs, so counterintuitively, eating more protein may help you burn more energy.

I listened to a recent interview with Robb Wolf of the Healthy Rebellion. He hypothesizes that while keto helps us to naturally eat less, it can cause us to eat too little and not only slow the metabolism but tamp down the thyroid function, which could be an explanation as to why people stall.

You may find this podcast helpful:

Let me know if this link doesn’t work and I’ll try something else later today.

#71

But it IS still eating less for many people on keto, it’s quite obviously shown. Whatever else happens, people eat less. I lost fat when I ate little enough on low-carb. I lost no fat when I went keto but ate as much as before. Obviously calories matters a lot as a human body normally isn’t wasteful, it wouldn’t use up precious fat reserves when it has plenty of food incoming (not gaining when there is too much food is another matter, my body is super wasteful there, thankfully). There is so much experience about it. Some people may work differently, sure but I didn’t even talk about these as I know it and others won’t believe me and it doesn’t matter.

I just say that eating less happens on keto in many cases. It’s no problem, in the contrary for people who lose fat while eating less due to keto. That was my point.

That is extremely stupid. I barely ever met this, the CICO forum I frequent is highly different. They are mostly into low-cal food, it’s stupid too and very bad idea for me but at least they don’t say it’s fine to eat only donuts if the calories are low enough :D. There is even a thread for satiating low-cal foods (that obviously never could work for me but each to their own. there are volume eaters).

The typical fat-loss diet is about low-fat protein and vegs and stuff as I noticed. Low-cal too but people quickly realized they couldn’t expect much from dieting with 1500 kcal of chocolate or donut or whatever :smiley: As they can’t even do it in the first place but surely would feel miserable anyway.
At least I hope everyone quickly realized that. I do remember some underweight people from a tv show who managed to live on candies for a while… Extremely serious eating disorders probably “help” eating almost nothing, no matter the food.

No, some people can eat very little without any or much hunger even on high-carb. Hunger is unreliable and all over the place, we can’t really expect it under some circumstances, some people surely won’t have it. (I like to focus on special cases, sorry. you are probably right in general.)
And anyway, being hungry isn’t necessarily bad. It may be needed for fat-loss for some people, poor souls. Even if they have a good method to avoid it, it may take too many decades and effort to find and realize it. I very much know that if I just skip carbs, I still will be hungry and lose zero fat under normal circumstances, whatever my hormones do. Keto doesn’t necessary solve the problem of hunger without too much food. SO MANY people on this very forum showed this, we don’t start magically lose fat on keto. (Well, they. I am merely on keto most of the time and it’s almost always very close to carnivore as it’s way easier than normal keto and it has even benefits.)

So we need tricks, sometimes a bunch of more to have chances. So I very much understand people don’t accept what others advice as it definitely failed for them but they experiment and try to find their own way.

But we still shouldn’t eat way too little. That’s always bad. Full fast is better if it’s not too long.

It’s always important what we eat as we usually have more satiating items. So if we eat the right things, it isn’t only good for health, but we actually can reach satiaty before we overate like crazy. Well it’s no problem for normal people who easily eat little on keto but I must avoid most “keto” items if I know what is good for me. Food choice is key for me but it’s important for everyone. Timing may be highly important too but not for everyone.
Still, total calories are very important. Many of us know it and I know we never will be able to persuade you just like anyone never will be able to persuade me about things I only experienced the opposite of. You say keto solves things but even you didn’t slim down! Many of us didn’t and we are NOT fine with it. It’s just not enough, not with more fat, not with more food, it just doesn’t work and some people already waited too many years. Of course we go into directions we saw more promise, maybe experienced they help - or we don’t know, we just do something different. At least experimenting is fun :wink:
(Eating little enough always worked for me and my family members, on any woe, each and every time. One person is special and starvation was highly successful, I am a hedonist who needs much food so I simply never ate too little, just at a small deficit and occasional surplus where my metabolism could thrive. Low-carb alone never worked, only if the calories were reduced but it was like a charm then.
I don’t care how special it is - not very much I suppose -, it’s OUR reality. So we obviously won’t believe things in contrary to these for us.
And things are rarely as extremely simple as some advisor says. Just because something worked for others, they may fail spectacularly for the one in question.)

Eating to satiaty is definitely not enough advice as it easily may be massive overeating for some of us under some circumstances (not right food choice - and it’s not always easy to figure out what is good choice. some experimenting for some years kinda worked for me but maybe not as there are so many factors) - but it may be starvation for others. These things are just not reliable enough. Sometimes it works wonderfully but sometimes other things interfere.

Famine mode comes when we starve (including low-key starvation when we do it just too little). I already wrote I am against that. Being hungry doesn’t do it. At least I wouldn’t think so but some people must have such a messed-up body…
I don’t care what causes it, I just said eating less isn’t inherently bad. At least I meant to.
And ketosis doesn’t always help much with hunger while eating the same amount. There are so many factors.

#72

Not everyone has this but it’s extremely obvious in my life… I am physically unable to eat below a certain amount of protein, I just get hungry again and again and again even if I ate a huge amount of fat and this call is irresistible.

But eating little fat isn’t good either, of course. We need our energy, not everyone can get much enough out from fat reserves.

(Edith) #73

I find that protein is definitely more satiating than fat, and that the feeling of satiation also lasts longer with increased protein.

#74

My satiation lasts longer if my meal is big but I need both protein and fat for that.

Adding more protein than needed (but that’s already high in my case) does little, I realized that and I try to avoid eating that wastefully. No matter how wonderful to eat plenty of protein :smiley:

And it matters which protein and which fat, they aren’t satiating the same. It seems many people have this.

(Carole) #75

If you ever read The Plan by Lyn-Genet reticis, you just ate 3 of her most reactive foods. They are pork, cauliflower and salmon. Hope you get to your goal soon!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #76

I would love to see the research that her ideas are based on. Sounds intriguing.

(Carole) #77

I’m not saying that I agree with her wholeheartedly. She collects data from around the world and compiled a list of foods that are most reactive. She has a website and is on YouTube and Facebook if you care to check it out. Thanks for your interest Paul

(Alli) #78

Ok. Based on what you’ve said, if you’re fasting to such an extreme extent and not losing weight, your body doesn’t want to lose weight/is in starvation mode. You need to eat more to lose weight, paradoxically. The extra calories are better off coming from fatty meat or eggs/high-fat dairy if you can, or you risk putting on a lot of what i affectionately refer to as “panic fat” (abdominal fat gained quickly under stress) if you start throwing in insulin spikes on top of a starvation metabolism. For what it’s worth, I have learnt after years of yoyoing on keto that I need a minimum of 160g fat a day to avoid my metabolism slowing down, and after 5 years of yoyoing between 150-200+lbs, when I stopped trying to lose weight and ate fatty meat and animal products to satiety, and stopped doing any deliberate fasts and started eating when i was hungry and went 12-36 hours without eating only when meat seemed unnappealing and i wasn’t hungry (maybe 1 or days a fortnight), i suddenly started losing weight beyond what i’d ever experienced before. I got to 114lbs and actually had to start deliberately eating double cream, drinking 1/2l goats milk a day and making quiche (eggs mixed with double cream) to keep my weight up. I still feel like it’s crazy that I eat so much fat and weigh less than i ever have, but I really think the more I attempted to outsmart my body the harder I made it for myself. Eat tasty, fatty, whole animal foods, move/walk a lot, and be kind to yourself and others. Eat said whole food when hungry and don’t if you’re not. I feel like I’m getting preachy but I also feel like if you’re in a place where you feel like you can’t eat for fear of gaining weight, you’ve stumbled in the wrong direction. At 200+lbs should have plenty of body fat to use for energy, but for some reason your body is not able to access that fat. 4oz of salmon a day is not enough food. As I said I learnt the hard way, if I eat less than about 160g a fat a day, my body is in starvation mode. I get symptoms of poor mental health, and I stop losing weight.Seriously, I gave myself subclinical hypothyroidism by getting obsessed with fasting and it was not fun. It’s hard to eat more when you want to lose weight, but if you’re not losing anyway, what’s the harm in eating to maintenance for a few weeks to let your body rest? You may gain a pound or two eating your bodyweight in bacon or goats cheese, but definitely less than if you reintroduce a bunch of starchy or sugary foods. If you wanna give off keto a go, I would recommend whole goats milk as a insulin-friendly carb to introduce. It doesn’t seem to give me cravings so I can enjoy about 500-600ml a day without any issues.

(Edith) #79

I’m curious: did you track other macros or only make sure you got the 160 grams or more of fat?

#80

Oh yeah I am curious too :slight_smile:

(I would stay fat forever with that much fat :smiley: And some people must eat little of it, it’s so interesting how different we are. I only have a minimum for protein, 130g is usually enough. Of course technically I have a minimum for fat but as I am unable to eat less than 80-100g, no way I ever could go below for a longer term.)

(Alli) #81

So, to give as much info as I can and not lead anyone astray. I found that once I was fat adapted, I noticed I would lose a lot of weight fast and then hit a wall. Above 160lbs I can fast all day and eat OMAD and 900cals a day until I hit what I guess is my body’s lower fat limit, and then after that I just do not lose weight if I attempt to long term. I can get down to 140lbs but then I feel weak and as soon as I look at a carb I gain weight again. Last time in despair I looked at my food diaries and found that whenever I went below 160g fat a day I got cold/had temperature regulation issues, and I would drop weight down to about 130lbs and then bottom out and feel really cold and weak and stressed. Carbs wise, I have found the following to be true for me: 0-15g energy crashes and feel weak, 15-35g stable energy, 35-50g upper limit excess energy, 50-100g sickly hunger still functional, 100+g panic and mental health symptoms. When I am fasting for say 36 hours, I will have 0g carbs and no energy crashes, but if I eat then I find that I do better on some, 15g-35g, carbs. I believe this is due to glucose demands on nervous system of ptsd. Protein, I do best on 1/2lb fatty meat a day so I rarely drop below 60 protein a day, average 100g maybe. Then due to life/stress/ptsd i will be too stressed to eat maybe once a week. So it’s not breaking the rules of science. I feast and fast and I think goats milk has been my saviour. I drink 0.5L a day and haven’t had any electrolyte issues since. Before when I hit 140lbs and got stressed I would have doubled down and cut the fat to cut calories, now I add a few tbsp double cream to the drippings to boost my metabolism. My body is very happy at 140lbs and is still adapting to 115lbs, so I’m feeding it as much animal fat and protein as I can. I’m lucky i’m in the uk so double cream is cheap and easy here and so is good butter :slight_smile: