500 calorie diet vs 5 day fast

(Carpe salata!) #41

One year my wife made an outstanding roast pork … it was Good Friday dinner. I think she offended every religion in the world in one meal :crazy_face:

(Ethan) #42

What matters is what you will do on day 6!

(Allison D) #43

Too late on the app.

(mole person) #44

People make the mistake of confusing lean mass with muscle mass all the time. And it’s worse than just the fact that bone, skin, and organs all constitute elements of lean mass. Lean mass is just total body mass minus fat mass and so it includes water mass as well. Given that we know that a large volume of water is lost as our glycogen stores are depleted when we fast, it’d be a miracle if lean mass didn’t drop on a fast.

(Felix) #45

You’re 184 cm, 70kg? That sounds fairly tall and skinny. And 16? I wouldn’t recommend fasting, just cut the added sugars and unhealthy processed crap, eat whole foods to satiety. And go have fun moving your body! Lift weights too.

(Doug) #46

Very good point, Felix. :slightly_smiling_face:

#48

@DatBoi Your’re 16!!! And, you’re not talking about keto - you haven’t even mentioned an intake of good fat… You’re not obese based on your height and weight - and your post is all about calorie restriction and extended fasting and frankly, it’s troubling. What do you think the ketogenic way of life is? PLEASE IF POSSIBLE BACKUP WHAT YOU’RE THINKING KETO IS.

Fasting beyond one day as a 16 year old is very high risk on a couple of fronts. Your growth hormones and developing brain need good fuel (fat and protein) for optimal performance in a time of tremendous metabolic change, NOT calorie reduction. Extended fasting OR calorie restriction at your age is a recipe for illness.

Low-carb/keto is a nourishing way of life - not about deprivation. It’s not about “500 calorie diets” or medically unsafe fasting (no physician supports teen extended fasting). It’s about health & healing.

Adolescence is an awkward, and often emotionally painful, time - add to that a photoshopped digital media, along with peer bullying and other stressors - and one can be at risk of body dysmorphia issues, self-harm, anorexia, etc.

Based on your height, weight, and age you should be focusing on a well-formulated, energy-dense way of eating if you want optimal body recomposition as you grow (if you’ve got babyfat hanging on it’ll change pretty quickly on low-carb/keto at your age, in a season or two). And - not doing anything drastic without physician support. Teens are super vulnerable to eating disorders as well as mineral depletion and terrible side effects from electrolyte imbalances. :tired_face:

Also - you didn’t mention if you are on any pharmaceuticals - this is crucial as well. Ritalin, Prozac, Wellbutrin, Adderall etc - as well as Birth Control pills/shots etc (you didn’t mention if you are female or male) - are serious drugs that require medical oversight should you decide to do a well formulated low-carb/keto way of eating because you may find you’ll need to reduce medication/look at other options at some point or you’ll feel very weird/sick.

For the metabolism of a teen, slowly reducing carbs from the usual 300-500grams total a day down to simply around 100-150grams total has huge benefits because it ensures that your brain and body are instead getting more actual nutrients. And, later, becoming fully “fat-adapted” - with your brain fueled on fat - you’ll get fully free of the the ups and downs of a sugar-burning system - and gain the neurogenesis it promotes with brain-derived-neurotrophic-factor (BDNF) helps everything as well.

Any published studies on adolescents doing LCHF/keto involve physician supervision to prevent bad outcomes and horrible side effects, as it’s a huge lifestyle change. Being psychosocially healthy as well as physically healthy is key here. Abundant whole foods nourishment is critical & necessary for your brain and long-term health. You should be learning how to simultaneously eat high good fat and moderate protein and low carb - not depriving yourself of nourishment. Your brain needs max support.

“The ketogenic diet is as well tolerated and efficacious for adolescents with epilepsy as for the general childhood population.”

Highly recommend this book by keto-physician & personal trainer Doug McGuff MD - all about how 90%+ of body recomp is in low-carb/keto nutrition, and the other bit is all about slow weight lifting with long recovery times (7-10 days between workouts).

https://www.amazon.com/Body-Science-Research-Strength-Training/dp/0071597174

And this one, written a few years back by Romanian fitness researcher Christian Vlad when he was 26 years old:

https://www.amazon.com/Ketone-Power-Superfuel-Ultimate-Performance/dp/1500370584/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0

Nourish yourself well! :avocado::fried_egg::bacon::steakcake::herb:

#49

I have to agree with @SlowBurnMary and @PaulL - the conversation changes dramatically knowing you are 16. Please focus on optimising nutrition rather than fasting for a good few years yet. Taking on board some of the principles regarding giving your system a rest between eating is not a bad idea - ie cutting out snacks and focusing on just eating at meal times - but fasting while you are growing and developing is not advisable. I think it is absolutely fantastic that you are getting to grips with your health and nutrition at such an age and it will set you up really well - go you :slight_smile:

#50

i was gonna consider keto but i was adviced by many not to do it, so i’m not really sure, also, since i do a lot of HIIT and weight training, would keto still be a good choice? considering that high intensity exercises need glucose to fuel the muscles because fat is too slow for that? i’m not on any pharmaceuticals, i’ve had many people say i shouldn’t fast for that long which is kinda sad considering i really enjoy it, but i guess i better wait so i don’t stun my growth (even if i’m probably not gonna grow anymore i’ve been 184cm for a some years now.)

#51

@Felix yeah i already did that and i look fairly good not since i’ve put on 5 kg of lean mass in the last couple of months. but i still have some belly fat that’s especially visible when i sit down, i already eat healthy, most of my diet is meat, healty carbs, food high in good fats and proteins etc. i just wanna get rid of my belly fat so i can get a 6 pack.

(She had one feck to give and that feck is gone.) #52

This has been puzzling me for some time. How do researchers know that muscle is being broken down (as is being endlessly asserted)? How is that measured? It seems ridiculous that the body would ever go for functioning muscle tissue if there are other energy sources that could be used without reducing survivability. Has it just been assumed that it must be functioning muscle because the products being measured are those of protein, but that it may have been autophagy all along?

#53

I think this is often what’s happening. There is some research on what’s lost during a fast, but I think there are two things that confound the results:

  1. any fasting done by sugar burners is just going to result in a dramatically different physiological response; and
  2. exactly what you say above: lean mass loss could be autophagy rather than muscle.
(Doug) #54

Well said, Jezza. In the short term, there’s going to be more stuff to recycle via autophagy. Just guessing here, but I’d think the body would go for the ‘low-hanging’ fruit’ first, and hopefully get to work on cellular debris that’s outright harmful and/or plentiful. Fasts of just a few days can give screwy results from all sorts of reasons, electrolyte balance, hormonal balance, water retention or loss - even directly in muscle tissue, gain or loss of water will show up as a gain/loss of muscle tissue.

Very good point. If one is fat-adapted, then the liver can make the relatively small amount of sugar that the body does need from fat. No protein at all is required for energy production if we’re burning ketones and sugar from fats.

In long-term fasts, I don’t think there is an instant when the body goes from “Off” to “On” as far as burning protein. We know that eventually, rather than die, the body will start consuming muscle. I picture a continuum where fat stores are getting low, where autophagy is not finding much to “eat,” and so the body starts chowing on just a bit of muscle. The portion of a day’s energy from muscle will increase as fat declines toward and past the danger point. Unless one is very lean to begin with, I don’t see this applying to fasts of days or weeks - what we mostly talk about on this site.

The dramatic increase in growth hormone production that occurs when fasting is a big factor, here. We know that this does happen:

(Alex) #55

can someone in this thread tell me if extended fasting can cause gallstones? cause i’m in the midst of my first fast ever, which i didn’t even plan, and i feel great. i am on hour 66 and am going to end it tonight at hour 72, not because i’m hungry, but because i’ve heard EF can cause gallstones, and also because i’ve seen others on this forum saying that for your first fast ever, you should keep it relatively short. not sure why, but i’ll take their word for it. so while i’d LIKE to keep it going, since i feel that i could, i’m going to end it at 72 hours to be safe versus sorry. is that accurate regarding gallstones though? if so, it may make me hesitant to do multi-day fasting down the road

(Carpe salata!) #56

I don’t think 3 days could have any impact. Just be sure to drink sufficient water.

#57

@DatBoi Well, low-carb/keto weight training and body recomposition is a huge subject - but boils down to being well nourished and using the mitochondrial energy by activating the fast twitch muscle fibers through high intensity slow weight bearing activities - and working them to fatigue. Though 90%+ of muscle development is dietary (Fred Hahn now says 99%!), the other bit is about mitochondrial activation for HGH, and proper recovery times.

The physician and Super Slow weight training master teacher Doug McGuff MD in that book Body By Science goes into great details about high intensity exercise is especially boosted by a LCHF/keto way of eating. Also, his student Fred Hahn is another LCHF/keto trainer, he’s the author of The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution. You may enjoy the other book I posted by Christian Vlad even more - as he shows how he metamorphosized through keto and weight training.

Yeah - don’t stunt your brain development or physical health - enhance it, with a well formulated low-carb/keto way of eating. You’ll do better if you transition to just low carb first, around 100-150grams of carbs a day with sufficient high levels of good fats (butter, coconut oil, coconut milk, bacon fat, animal fats) and moderate daiy protein according to the guidelines for your age and build (preferably whole foods animal proteins - bacon, eggs, chicken, fish, 100% beef burgers w/o bun, real cheeses, moderate nuts, etc) - along with plenty of whole veg carbs. The low carb paleo style of eating includes sweet potatoes and certain other low-sugar starchy veg.

Depending on your metabolic health, you may do very well at just low carb rather than very low carb/keto - as many adolescents have super high metabolisms and can maximize the benefits of just regular low carb. This basically means cutting out sodas/sugary drinks (most sports and energy drinks are full o’ crap), cutting out high carb fruits, desserts, baked things - and limiting starchy veg (french fries, chips) and wheat/corn etc - which then frees you up to eat a lot of nutrient-dense foods and healthy electrolyte drinks you can make yourself (keto-aid recipes are on this forum). There are also lots of tasty low-carb sweet things/snacks online.

And then - if after a few months of low carb and getting really informed about things you decide to go keto -you’ll have an easier time shifting down from 100grams total carbs to 50gr total carbs or less - making the switch to use fat for your fuel, and becoming fully “fat-adapted” with minimal side effects. A well-formulated keto way of life can be very beneficial for teen brainz - but can also be difficult to do on your own depending on how well informed the people around you are. It can help to watch keto documentary films with friends and/or family!

It might help for you to check out some recent films on keto-fueled health, brainz, muscles - films like The Magic Pill, Cereal Killers, and Run on Fat go into lots of cool details about body recomposition, different cultures, and strength building. :muscle:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #58

The usual measure of amino-acid breakdown is the excretion of nitrogen, usually in the form of uric acid in the urine, but occasionally in the form of ammonia on the breath or in the urine, as well. There is always a certain amount of nitrogen being excreted, because there is always a certain amount being ingested; the problem comes when there is an imbalance, and it depends on the reason for the imbalance. Excessive excreted nitrogen in the presence of an abundant diet is a sign of eating too much protein; excessive excreted nitrogen during fasting would be a sign that amino acids are being metabolized for nourishment.

Whereas carbohydrates and fats are made exclusively of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, amino acids are distinguished by the presence of a nitrogen atom in addition to the C, H, and O, so nitrogen in the excreta is an indication of the breakdown of amino acids.

Proteins do not last for ever; they eventually break down and need to be disposed of. A faulty or damaged protein can be disassembled into its component amino acids, which can then be either re-used or excreted. There are, if I recall correctly, some twenty amino acids in the human body, of which nine must be present in the diet; the rest can be manufactured by the body. All ingested proteins are decomposed in the digestive system into their component amino acids before being absorbed into the bloodstream. There is a pool of these amino acids that is drawn from for various purposes: tissue growth, gluconeogenesis, metabolism (but only when necessary, because it requires a fair amount of energy to metabolize protein, so it’s not an efficient process), etc.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #59

@DatBoi Again, for a growing teenager I would recommend eating protein and fat ad libitum, the only restraint being lack of hunger. In other words, eating protein in moderation is for adults, who don’t usually need as much; body-builders and growing adolescents need more protein than we are accustomed to recommending on these forums. At 184 cm, you may have stopped growing in height (let’s hope so, or you are going to find clothing increasingly expensive, lol!), but you are still building bone and muscle (filling out, we call it), and will be for some years yet.

Let hunger be your guide; at your age you are supposed to be eating your parents out of house and home. Don’t stint on either protein or fat; you need the former for growth and the latter both for energy and for brain development (the brain is mostly made of cholesterol, and it contains about 25% of all the cholesterol in your body). As long as you keep your carbohydrate low (and under 20 g/day is not too low; you would be fine eating no carbohydrate whatsoever), your hunger will be a reliable guide of how much to eat. Be sure to get plenty of calcium and sodium; if you get enough of those, the rest of the minerals will take care of themselves.

#60

I say that within the context that that gorging on protein _without abundant fattiness can become a high-protein health risk. So thinking it’s fat that sets the framework which informs ‘moderate’. The only keto dietary guidelines I know of for childhood-adolescence, are all about the magic combo of very high fat + moderate protein (preferably meat/animal products), with 3 nutrient-dense meals a day along with fatty snacks as desired. What’s amazing is that a teen who is eating enough fat will then feel naturally satiated with moderate protein - bodybuilding efforts may make one more hungry and adds an additional meal a day on training days.

It’s pretty amazing how lowcarb/keto fat-adaptation in the brain makes it possible to be a well-fueled, energized, and mentally stable teen without the ups and downs of carbs and the starvation feelings before a mealtime. I wish schools were hip to this fact.