~3months keto, IF, but not losing any fat (waist size) + weirdly low blood glucose & very high ketones

#1

Hello everyone,

I am a 33 years old male, switched to keto 3 months ago, had the keto flu, the ketostix reading were elevated, hunger lessened a lot, i’ve been almost religious about following my macros, i’ve essentially been eating the same thing every day (cf screenshot below).

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Capture d’écran 2018-06-22 à 12.18.20.png1510×1474 440 KB

or some variation of it, with added Arugula, and some gouda cheese sometimes.

I am trying to (on top of getting the mental clarity) get rid of my belly fat, i would say my body fat percentage (from looking at pictures) is around 23% but really concentrated in the (extended) belly.

About a month ago now as I was not seeing any results I decided to add Intermittent fasting to the mix, started with 16/8, but quickly moved to 22/2, I have no trouble waiting for 2pm to eat, then after lunch I have my mct coffee and my reward quest bar (lol) and that’s it, been doing this for 3 weeks now with no cravings or trouble maintaining it which leads me to believe (again, according to what I read) that I am fat adapted…

On top of that, I have started doing HIIT (mon,wed,fri) & bodyweight training (tue,thu,sat) in a fasted state that I read is the best way to burn fat while also on ketosis.

However, the situation is that I have lost no fat at all since starting, and on top of that, a couple things add to my confusion :

1 - I have just bought a blood measuring device to have more clarity on what’s happening, and here are my readings :

  • morning just after waking up , glu 3.7 mmol/L (~66mg/dl) , ketones 5.1 mmol/L
  • after 2 cups of black coffee : glu 4.1mmol/L (~74mg/dl), ketones 5.2mmol/L
  • 2pm just before eating : glu 3.9 mmol/L ( ~70mg/dl) , ketones 2.7mmol/L
  • 2hours after eating : glu 4.8mmol/L (~86mg/dl), ketones 3.1mmol/L
  • at 9pm before going to bed : glu 4mmol/L (72mg/dl), ketones 5.9mmol/L

The ketones levels seem extremely high to me, and what’s more now i’m worried about that 3.7mmol glucose reading in the morning, it’s under the “healthy” limit, should I be worried about it ?

What’s for sure is that i’m in deep deep ketosis, and most probably have been for a while now, yet 0 visible results.

2 - I have read that doing any kind of anaerobic exercise while still not fat adapted is actually counterproductive, so I’m wondering if it could be this, but how could I still not be fat adapted after all this time and being able to go 22/2 for weeks ?

Any advice or feedback on what i could be doing wrong, what i could improve or test etc… would be very welcomed and extremely appreciated :slight_smile:

EDIT : I’m 1.77m tall and my actual weight is 70.5kg, started at 72kg 3 months ago.

Best,

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #2

I wouldn’t worry about your numbers.

If you are not feeling fat-adapted, sometimes increasing fat intake can help. Another thing to look at is your protein intake. I don’t see your weight in your post (could well have missed it), but the Dudes recommend 1.0-1.5g protein/kg lean body mass/day. Others recommend more or less, so there is quite a bit of flexibility. Also, scrutinize your food for hidden carbohydrate and especially sugar. Be sure to look at the ingredients list, not just the nutrition panel, because they often chose a portion size that lets them list sugar as 0g, when it is really 0.499g or such (I hope and trust I got the decimal point right, this time!). If sugar appears (under whatever name) as one of the first three ingredients, the product is probably best avoided. (I haven’t read much good about the Quest bars on these forums, for instance.)

Other people may have different—and better!—suggestions, but these are things to try at least.

(Aimee Moisa) #3

Hi Mehdi, I’m new too so I don’t have any advice but I am wondering what app that is you’re using. It looks awesome. :slight_smile:

(Beth) #4

I didn’t see your height and weight but your intake of calories and protein seem low. You might have better results eating more during your feed window & maybe trying to lengthen your fast window? I lost more fat doing Dr. Fung’s recommended 36 hour fasts 3 days a week & eating about 130% of macros on eat days.
Your glucose & ketones are great. My ketones are regularly in the 4 to high 5 range.
My husband’s goals were similar to yours. He works with a sports medicine RD who is a keto expert and trains pro athletes.
I will save you the $250 consult fee; here are his recommendations for fat loss/muscle gains.
The high points are:
—lift/workout in fasted state
—lift heavy for muscle gains
—consume a high protein meal/shake within an hour of that workout when the body is primed for fuel uptake
—Consume 1.5 to 2 grams protein per lb LBM during eating window. This is for muscle gain; adjust according to your goal.
—Carbs to tolerance, minimize added fat until goal weight, prioritize MCTs like coconut oil
—Daily IF with an eating window of 8 hours or less as tolerated depending on % of body fat, for hormone/HGH benefits.

He’s supervising some athletes who are having success using IF, lifting in a fasted state, high protein consumption.
They are intermittent fasting anywhere from 14 to 36 hours, depending on where their body fat is and their goals. The ones going longer want to reduce body fat % or diminish inflammation.
The lowest body fat % athletes are only able to do 14 hours IF and consume a high protein shake right after workouts and right at the end of their eating window. He has them consuming 1.5 to 2 g of protein per pound of lean mass dep being on goals. They lift mornings in a fasted state and lift hard on a workout designed for muscle gain.
They consume a high protein meal or shake within one hour of workouts when the body is primed for fuel uptake.
The athletes using this approach have seen muscle gains while fat melts away at the same time. He says the coaches freak out at the fasting because they’re afraid of muscle loss, but it has not happened. He advises athletes to use a lot of coconut oil/MCT because the body burns it so quickly. He says the athletes who get fat adapted see good muscle gain and stay leaner without having to do carb cycling phases. The approach gets tweaked depending on the athlete’s goals. His clients tend to be older guys trying to remain competitive and prevent/heal injury and this has worked really well for them.
It works great for my husband. He is 6’, 185, slim build but had some belly fat also. Not being a football player, he went with 100-125g protein a day. He did the 16:8 IF, ate about 35g protein after morning fasted workouts, about 50g protein in meals and another 25g protein in a shake right at the end of his eat window (before bed). His fat & carb intake are similar to yours. He has no problems with pre-diabetes. He gained 5-6 pounds of muscle over 2-3 months and the belly fat just evaporated. He’s very proud of his six pack abs now.

#5

Thank you for your answer Paul.

And you’re right i forgot to post my weight … facepalm!

I’m at 70.5kg rights now, so roughly 154 pounds, started at 72kg 3 months ago … not a lot of progress.

I am super vigilant about my macros yes, especially the carbs, i’m very often well under the 20g i was even wondering if it’s not too low, as my average is closer to 13-15g net carbs.

#6

It’s cronometer.com and yes it’s pretty cool ! it helps a lot :slight_smile:

(Aimee Moisa) #7

Urg, that thing is so complicated. I’m not fat adapted yet so I’m not quite clear-headed enough to understand it. LOL

#8

Haha thank you for the detailed answer, I hope to be proud of my six pack abs too at some point! :slight_smile:

I have experimented with higher protein today since I can now measure exactly what’s happening and it did not knock me out of ketosis, my BG 2 hours after eating 125g of proteins (ribs, miam) was at 4.3mmol (77mg/dl) and ketones still at 5.3, i measured 3 times after that and BG and Ket, and both ended closer to 4mmol/l …

It’s just that from what I read ketone levels this high means i’m probably not fat adapted, and as a matter of fact, i don’t feel high energy, quite the opposite actually, but i can IF easily… so, will have to wait and see, at least now I can monitor and have a clearer view on the progress.

I’m 1.77m and weigh 70.5kg now, down from 72kg 3 months ago.
I think my maintenance is at 1800 calories so 1600 seems okey, though I have to admit i’ve been guilty of restricting too much, but just because I was feeling full after a big salad, but i’d say the average this last 3 months was probably around 1300 cals at 70% fat.

(Jackie ) #9

From what I’ve read/heard, my advice would be:

  • cut out the quest bar & cherry tomatoes
  • don’t go lower than 20g carbs
  • don’t restrict/watch calories until later on
  • no IF until you’re fully fat adapted
  • increase both fat and protein
#10

If that journal entry is typical, you’re demanding high output (HIIT, weight training) from your body, but you’re not giving it real food. A couple of avocados, BPC, and a Quest bar may hit macro targets we’ve set in our head, but the rest of our body doesn’t think in those terms.

Consider eating meals consisting of real food. The societies our great grandparents lived in had it right nutritionally. It doesn’t have to be complicated:

  1. pick a meat (fish, fowl, cow, pig, etc)
  2. pick a veggie (preferably leafy green or cruciferous)
  3. pick a fat (nuts, seeds, olives, avocado, coconut, etc)
  4. use oils and dairy as needed/tolerated
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

. . . bacon, butter, tallow, lard, ghee . . .

(Chris W) #12

I won’t say that ketones and fat adaption are not related but while fat adapted I had high ketone readings, that has as much to do with intake as anything. Some people do show a drop in ketone production after fat adaption. If you consume a fair amount of MCT that will boost your ketones as they more or less go straight to the liver and produce ketones.

If you are in a constant deficit you will not loose fat very quickly, so I would up your intake in general but in particular fat. Try going north of your maintain for a couple days and see what the results are I tend loose more weight when I am intaking higher amounts of fat than my maintain and I feel great doing it.
The gut on most guys is the last thing to go, also since you are working out you are gaining muscle so the scale is by itself not an accurate assessment. I was loosing BF and gaining weight more than once so far.
As others have said dump the bars, I would dump the peanut butter, and probably the tomatoes. Go for bacon, eggs, steak, sausage, avacodoes, spinach etc.

#13

Are you eating salon or taking EPA and DHA as supplements?
Also how long have you been HIIT and how intense are you going at it?
As In2steam said,up your calories in fats.

#14

Wow thank you guys (and gals) all so much for taking the time and share your advice!

I love the idea of upping my fats haha, there is a delicious lard here in Ukraine (called “Salo”) where I am at the moment, it’s extremely caloric (600kcal per 100gr, 8g protein, 63g fat) and I always have some of it in the fridge, will not be an issue to add 50g of it to my daily meals.

Also love the idea of not going lower than 20gr of net carbs, it’s rasp/blackberries season here, they’re so cheap and delicious, again shouldn’t be an issue at all filling up on those to hit 20/25gr net carbs.

@4dml thank you! At the start i was eating this salad + a salmon steak everyday as I read on the dietdoctor not to care that much about calories and just eat specific food, but then i started calculating my macros and saw how much protein was in salmon so i started using it more sporadically.
However since a couple weeks now I went back to buying some steaks & salmon again and adding them every other day, and i’m glad to see it’s not knocking me out of ketosis so i’ll maintain it :slight_smile:

@In2steam I suspected the deficit was doing me a disservice since i’m still not fully adapted may be my body thinks i’m in starvation mode, those very high level of ketones certainly suggest so.
Thank you for your advice i’ll up the fats and settle at maintenance or a little over it and see how it goes.
About the BF loss i’m mostly monitoring my waist size as I know the scale doesn’t tell the full story since i’m also building muscle (this I can see, my biceps are growing), and it has barely moved by 0.5cm in 3months :confused:

@wellshii yes I am taking krill oil on the days when i’m not eating salmon, why ?
About hiit I do 30 min at a 140-150 bpm average, so not full on but still intense, usually burns around 280-300 cals according to my iwatch.

@Earthboundgirl thank you for your advice!
Why is IF unwanted before being fully fat adapted ?

@everyone what’s with the cherry tomatoes ?

#15

Just a question, when you guys say “up the fats” you mean in grams right ? in % of calories i’m already at 70% fat average…

(Chris W) #16

Most of us use grams, % are too hard to figure out its extra math.
I was IF before fat adaption but not long, if you are hungry eat, if that means 3 squares a day then do it. IF will come naturally, if you let it. Don’t leave the table hungry either make that meal count. Just don’t snack regularly that is after a couple weeks in a big thing IMHO.
Cherry tomatoes they are high in sugar, a small amount of some berries is OK.
Be mindful that sugar in particular will hinder ketosis if not out right stop it. But you are also battling insulin and maybe more to the point insulin is more important since it controls blood glucose anyway. You will get spikes of insulin with higher GI type foods the higher the spike the more likely you are to shut down the catabolic processes like ketosis.
Also I would advise you not to try and hit the 20g carb limit but stay away from it.

(Kathrine) #17

Intermittent fasting raises your growth hormone so maybe you are gaining muscle mass.
Up you calories!
If you don’t have much to lose you don’t need to cut your calories so drastically :slight_smile:
But! Most importantly you should listen to your body!