10day 8 person canoe trip with carb burners, thoughts

(Chris W) #1

Hey this is my first actual post and not a response!

In early June,(at about 9 months keto) unless the dam lake is still frozen, I am supposed to go on a adventure with 4 other male friends and possibly there wives for a total of 7 other people plus me. No offense ladies I am hoping it is only 4 of us for a number of reasons but that is a whole different topic.
The trip is supposed to be CICO (not calories either, carry in carry out) its about 8 hours from my home in northern MN on the boundary waters or similar( we have not finalized plans). All the men are in my age around 45, I am probably the fittest one of the bunch but not the strongest per say. The actual canoe trip is going to be 7 days and one day layover in a lodge or cabin depending upon were we end up on the finalized plans.
I am not the person doing the outfitting, so I am stuck with a number of non-keto food choices, and depending upon were we go I may not be able to fish from what I understand.

So the way I see it, I have two choices maybe three.

First choice is to fast from the time we depart until we tie up at the cabin or lodge if all goes well 3.5 days. Now I can fast that long and exercise, depending upon the trip we may have to ford on the first half. I just did a nine mile hike at 6000 feet to 7500 feet with vertical up and down of around 2000 feet(up then down and the up again each way) with out much problem. I was fasted 12 hours at that point, so I figure rowing with a partner in a canoe at slow pace should not be an issue at 600 feet or so. I could then either try make keto friendly food from the few choices I have, and sneak some stuff with. Then go the rest of the trip on the way out fasting again, and this maybe more of stretch for me, my best fast has only been 80 hours and I was not doing good at that point. If the current rate of loss continues i will be on the order of 15%BF maybe less.

Second choice, is to go carb burner again for a while, break myself in before the trip and get through any headaches and bloating. I find this approach appealing because if the wives go I am almost certain that we will not make the cabin on time and we will have to stop and eat 3 squares every day plus fording/portaging will take much longer. Only possible down side to this, when I have gotten a hold of carbs recently my joints swelled up, particularly my shoulder.

Third choice is to try an convince the outfitter to adjust the meal plan to be much more keto friendly, it is protein heavy but almost everything has a starchy sauce from what I can see. I can pick off noodles and the like, not the sauce so much. This person is rather stubborn and thinks I have fallen for a carnival barkers side show act by being keto. He has not seen me in eight months, and may change his tune but until then I have to deal with that issue. Now I can probably sneak in cans of sardines, some form of oil, nuts, but my luck at fishing is not great anyway so I won’t count on that if I can.

Other issues, one person is diabetic, one person is allergic to finned fish(the outfitter) and if the wives go 2 of them are compulsive over eaters IMHO. The last time we did something like this the two wives snacked on our food supply while biking and had to cut the whole trip short by one day. This would be my first CICO trip over one day and longest trip with these guys/wives. My canoe mate(who is also single) will most likely be someone who is not great at swimming and in the past has turtle flipped a canoe, so I have to deal with possibility as well. That and I have nasty tendency to go on trips when it rains.

So what do you guys think about the options? Did I miss one? I am not fiscally tied to this trip yet so I could not go at all.

Keto canoe tripper looking for backcountry meal ideas
(Rob) #2

Hard to believe - got to be worth a badge :grin:

Interesting post and options… if I may summarize:
Option 1 - Fasting for first half & then keto as best you can
Option 2 - full carb burner, follow the crowd
Option 3 - get possible food bigot to change in advance

These are my thoughts FWIW (mostly city dude, all my hikes end at a B&B every day)

  1. Option 1 - Awesome! Fast the first half and BLOW THEIR MINDS :exploding_head::exploding_head::exploding_head:.
    IF you can pull it off - otherwise it may be an epic fail talked about for years :flushed:. Keto on for 2nd half once the point has been made, they may be more accommodating after your keto-heroism or just don’t sweat the sauces since you will probably burn many of them off anyway.
  2. Option 2 - You’ve already said why not - you will get sicker, hurt and may well not enjoy the trip at all
  3. Option 3 - Worth a try if you don’t think that you can pull off Option 1 but doesn’t sound hopeful unless the shock of seeing the new you convinces him (maybe?).
    If I may suggest an Option 4.
  4. Carry in 2lbs or more of Macadamias, Slim Jims (but better) & jerky and a bunch of salt. That would probably be enough for the whole week (pretty PSMF) and very Daniel Boone if he had access to Australian miracle nuts. If you just wanted to manage the first half, take less.

In theory I like option 1, I’d try option 3 anyway as well (why not make second half of trip easier) but I would probably hedge with a modified option 4 for backup.

I would still go, under the banner of “you mostly regret the things you don’t do”. You may educate the other guys/gals? :nerd_face:

(Chris W) #3

I like your thinking.

Only one issue, I did not mention it so bare with me.
I have exactly 2 feet by 2 feet for everything I take with including my tent, bedroll, clothes and stove(i am the only one with a stove that will work). Slim Jims (packaged) are a no go because of the CICO rules, I could use duke’s sausages though same idea and put them in a hanging bag around my neck I suppose. I am not on the chuck wagon canoe unless the ladies go and then it would change.

This is bear country so I have to be able to sling the food, I also just double checked and no tins so sardines are out. The salt is already going on the chuck wagon canoe, the diabetic requested pink salt so did I, he is taking a small tub of it. I have a little bottle I can wear around my neck also.
One of the other reasons the outfitter is so set in his ways is that he has already purchased a lot of the food. He is the closest and he has both of the canoes at his place. If the ladies go, I am bringing one and it could work out I am by myself so I would have more room. I would just hate the company and the pace even more.

(Rob) #4

Okey dokey, then… make the rules harder then :roll_eyes:

Deffo Option 1 - I’d still smuggle in a big bag of macadamias (more bear “friendly”?) if I could. Be the keto hero/maniac. What’s the worst case scenario?

(Thinks of :wolf::bear::chipmunk::mountain_snow::evergreen_tree::canoe::cloud_with_lightning_and_rain: )

Yeah, carbs don’t sound so bad?

(Ron) #5

What about thinking smaller. sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, chia seeds, flax seeds, hemp hearts, etc.
Wouldn’t take up much room and just add a little warm water and some spices (that wouldn’t take space also).

(Straight outta ‘Straya’) #6

Who’s making all these silly rules? Is it a park rule that you can’t have sardines etc?

If it’s your friends making the rules then just tell them that you’ll manage your own food thanks very much.

(Olivia) #7

I mostly hike alone and have been doing so pre-and post keto. Usually with very long endurance exercise you’ll be tapping into your body’s fat deposits after 2 h anyway keto or sad-diet. So, I think the carbs you’ll eat will be put to good use during your trip. I usually have a keto breakfast, snack around 2pm on some nuts and cook one of these backpacking noodle things in the evening. Eating carbs after exercise is definitely different compared to eating french fries after a desk job day.

(Ken) #8

Ten days of eating carbs will not cause a lipogenic readaptation. Enjoy yourself. Really, your only other option is to buy a briskit or two and make yourself some Pemmican.

(Chris W) #9

Depending upon were we end up, the rules change slightly.
And you are obviously not from an area that has a DNR(department of natural resources) that has more power than the police like I do. Yes you cannot take in tins, everything packed in must be packed out in plastic tubs you have to use pit vaults for personal needs and you can only use them for that. If you cannot find one and another piece of equipment I need to take with is a small garden trowel, because I have to dig a latrine hole. This is not a “park” it is pretty much wilderness, my son went to the boundary waters a few years ago, its wild the lake area is shared with Canada. You need several licenses or permits, and I am sure the fines are quite steep for not conforming. It is not my home state so I have to rely on others in the area for their knowledge.
The only issues with the outfitter(and I use that term loosely he is painter) who is not my friend, but a friend of the other two who are my friends, he is being somewhat practical, just not in my direction. He has to feed three other people and has space constraint that is even smaller than mine when it comes to food, unless more people go. These folks are all carb burners, even the diabetic, but they suffer the roller coaster every 4 hours or so. I am proselytizing him but he is not there yet and would not be ready in 1 months time. His wife is more trouble than him he is well “whipped”.
If this were only a day or two trip I would be much better off, but part of this system if you were to call it that is we all need to rely on one another for certain parts of the whole. If one of us does not go, like me, then the whole may not go at all.

(Chris W) #10

And I agree completely if it were not for my shoulder, that is a risky I am not really willing to take. I thought about jerky/pemmican idea for all of us, that conversation will be happening today.

(Karen) #11

I have rinsed sauces off ( bbq) . You might be able to.

K

(Chris W) #12

No fresh or canned meat these are more along the lines of MRE’s I am not entirely sure to the what extent though I was given a menu not the actual ingredients. Mostly noodle, pancake, oatmeal, rice, type stuff,freeze dried bacon is going(thank god), and few fresh vegetables for day one in a stew. If we can fish, only three of us could eat it, and I or one of the others would have to prepare it along with other duties already assigned and taking the time to fish, which is probably with limited equipment as well. The stove we have is a back up, most things are either small fry pan or dutch oven over a open fire its a group meal. To do it any other way would require to many items to carry. Canoes also have loading limits you can only go so high, and so much weight, I am by no means a canoe expert I am relying on two other people’s experience in the matter.

(Trish) #13

I don’t understand the space constraints. My son went on a 7 day canoe camping trip with 2 dozen people on the ontario quebec border in God’s country. They had big dry bins that they simply tied and towed. They canoed days and made camp each night. They brought everything they needed including tents sleeping bags clothes, shovels to dig latrines, and all their food and camping gear. I’ll have to ask him how they kept stuff fresh and report back but as I recall they ate really well. He’s actually done this twice and once had a hell of of a torrential downpour as well. I get that more you bring the more you have to carry but you should have more than 2x2 space.
My choice would be to bring jerky, nuts, loaf of keto bread, hot dogs, and eat of theirs what you can while subbing your stuff when you can’t.
I also vote to leave the women folk at home especially since 2 of the guys are going stag and by the sounds of it , it won’t end well when the husbands have to slow down to help their wives and you want to keep moving…although your inexperienced buddy with the turtling ways may be your camp wife in this case LOL.
Be sure to let us know how it all turns out.

(Chris W) #14

The numbers are stacked against you with a smaller party(which is why if the wives go it would be easier on that end), and the canoes we have are not ideal in size(i think they are 14’ I honestly don’t know) for storage each of us has 2x2x3 space the space between the gunwales and the thwarts. My experience with canoes like this is limited, there maybe some space in the bow and keel as well again I don’t have them in hand have to work within the constraints are as presented. I suspect it may have to due with putting things into tubs as wel but have not asked that question yet.

They are however lighter to carry, which is a practical consideration. I am not sure if we can tow anything though that will be an option when I call today. They would have to be able to be secured in a tree if they contain food. I am not sure if your son portaged but there is around a mile(each trip is different) of doing that or so I am told so that factors into it as well, each time you have unload haul secure, probably haul again secure, and then haul the canoe and then reload.
My sons comment on portage was some thing to the effect of hell on earth with bugs on his trip.
After reading an email this morning one of the trip options will give us the ability to stock ahead of time a cabin/lodge with some non-perishables so I am pushing for that trip. It also has the least amount of restrictions and portaging, even though the wives will mostly likely come on that one.
And it would be boy girl, boy girl, boy, girl(GF) and girl(adult daughter)(lucky bastard), me if everyone goes.

#15

I would be opting out.

I’ve been on any number of holidays, camping trips, work trips and ‘adventures’.

Experience has taught me several things, firstly that I can stand anyone, or anything, for a while. But some of them REALLY aren’t worth the effort.

You are stressing about maintaining/abandoning your way of eating AND the hen-pecked relationship between a couple AND the wives pigging out on group rations AND the provisioner having already spent a lot of money on food and is already juggling other requirements AND the outfitter being ‘a bit fixed in his ways’ and believing you have fallen into some kind of carnivore cult AND the person you may be paired with capsizes a lot.

Sounds like hell on water! :wink:
My vacations are worth more to me than enduring that - without even factoring in keto v carbs.

(Chris W) #16

That is absolutely and interesting take on the subject. When you compound all the things together it does have a certain stink to it.
I will say that the only person who is not really with my WOE is the outfitter, and if I were to compare him to a fictional character he is just like John Goodman in the Big Lebowski(walter) with a little bit of Dennis Hopper added for flavor. My closest friend is the diabetic and he is I think really starting to see the light but his wife is another story all together.

I am not really stressing about the WOE change of per say, its the pain that could come back in my shoulder. I am sure I could do just fine on carbs otherwise and return to keto. If I did not have that issue I don’t think at this point I would have thought too much about it save the transition back.

(Kirk) #17

This is why all my back country trips are solo.
keji2keji1keji3

(Chris W) #18

NIce did you make it? I want to make a strip canoe this summer.

(Kirk) #19

Thanks. Yeah, I’ve built a number of them. www.farback.ca
A canoe is next on my list after I make a skin-on-frame for one of my granddaughters.

(Steve ricci ) #20

I went on a 10 day 90 mile backpacking trip. I packed food i knew i would need including totillas and rice. Because i was so active it did not effect me at all. I even lost weight. My thoughts are better to make sure you have energy for the physical demand then to deal with the no energy or recovery. That will Make the trip miserably and seem endless. I would just pick up were you left off when you get back. You will need alot of calories, I’m guessing about 4500 a day atleast.