You had a try at Keto, it didn’t work for you. What now? You have to eat (eventually)


I made my own coffee, rather than dealing with the philosophers and conspirators at the beach coffee van.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #5

Fortunately, it worked for me. But if you’re willing to provide funding I could search for viable alternatives. I’m confident that given sufficient time and funds I would be successful. :sunglasses:


I have no doubt Michael. Your research skills and reporting are par excellence.

(John) #7

I don’t think I understand the question. You may need a CAT scan based on some of your recent posts.

If you are asking what alternative eating approaches I have considered, Mediterranean is at the top of my list, and may be something I experiment with transitioning into when I get to my desired goal weight.

(Troy) #8


I’ll just wait on you then for an alternative :smile:
Keep me posted

In the meantime, I would just go fast for 40 day and 40 nights
That appears to be a good window for a solution to alternative WOE :pray:t2:


Yes, worth a probe John. Despite the omniscience of both our profile pics, I’ve had Nancy look over it.

I just came across a run of “I’m never going back!” assertions. From people enjoying the benefits of ketogenic eating. It made me wonder why anyone would think back was the only way to go.

Then that got complicated or complemented by reading about people’s cravings and food addictions and heavy falls off of the Keto wagon train (mainly during the festive times and events). And there are some real battles there with internal biochemistry that wants to hold them to the carbohydrate physiological addiction responses, especially in the context of processed carbohydrates and sugar.

Then there is my own very rocky dietary experimenting in low oxalate carnivore eating and finding “going back” was “cheating” on carnivore was by eating whole foods Keto diet. I may have been high (not a recreational drug user), but I found that hilarious and in equal measure joyful.

All of that made me think which way where one might go with their eating (including not eating) to pause and reflect if the bulk of one’s decisions and actions are leading to improved health.

All this would make a fun video game ( or board game for those of us off grid… yep, I’m a bit off grid today).

Nancy also known as Boot (click on the IMG tag to receive a free cat scan (buzzing noise not included, maybe you could hum)):

(John) #10

Ok, that makes sense. So when I started into this, I researched all of the effective diets I saw out there. They all had some things in common:

  • Eat real foods
  • Only when hungry
  • Not too much
  • Avoid sugar and excessive starches

So that made sense to me. And there was like 80% overlap between the Mediterranean diet and a low carb diet. Or at least, by picking and choosing your foods, you could almost fit into both camps at the same time.

Quite often, if someone were to look at my dinner plate, and see salmon, broccoli, and a salad with dressing, they would have no idea what kind of diet I was on. Or see me eat a couple of eggs, with a couple slices of bacon, and a small bowl of yogurt with berries and nuts. Or a lunch of tuna salad, with a side salad of mixed greens, topped with parmesan, some chopped walnuts, and some blue cheese dressing.

It would only be when they started looking for things like bread, pasta, rice, and potatoes, or noticed me passing on the donuts, cookies, or ice cream, that they might think I was eating any sort of “weird” diet.

Because all of that stuff (the meat and veggies, not the starches and sugars) is healthy on anybody’s diet. So that’s the deal. Unless you go out to some of the more extreme ends, it’s just a healthy diet. I use butter in cooking and added to vegetables, but I don’t EAT butter. I eat bacon, but not a pound of bacon, more like 2 or 3 strips, and not every day. I have beef, but maybe once every couple of weeks, not every day. Not that I am trying to avoid it per se, I just never really liked it that much. I even occasionally eat bread, though half a slice, of a high-fiber bread with no added sugar, and generally not on the same days when I am eating other carby options (like the yogurt).

When I got into this, I knew it needed to be something I could do for life. So I have always tried to shade it a bit more towards the middle. I have never given up vegetables, nor berries, nor do I go overboard on fats, and I try to stick with butter, olive oil, and avocado oil where possible, plus those that naturally come with the proteins I eat.

Now I may have had an easier go of it than some, because I don’t have diabetes, and may not have even had metabolic syndrome or have been especially insulin resistant. I just ate way too much, of really bad-for-me things, and was completely sedentary, both at work (desk job) and at home.

Hell, ANY change I made was going to show some improvement. So whereas some may need to go super strict on carbs, or even go carnivore, I didn’t need to do any of that. Just changing WHAT I was eating, and then adjusting WHEN I was eating, and finally managing HOW MUCH I was eating, made huge improvements. And then I piggybacked off that success and started exercising again (I used to, just had gotten out of the habit).

So I am not sure what I would want to go back to. Donuts, cookies, and ice cream?


And there you have it. If Keto or any dietary change is only one step removed from the original way of eating that was leading to ill health, then the only way to fall back is in among the donuts.

But in making a dietary change one opens their eyes to the myriad of dietary possibilities, then that could be metaphorically considered as “ moving forward”.

And with the constant metabolic change of human aging that movement forward potentially meets no plateau until the hard stop point.

I’d suggest falling forward, if one is to stumble.

We can’t believe that our way of doing Keto is the optimal way of eating for our health or, more potently, anyone else’s health. But there is everybody else’s way of doing Keto to potentially try. So many inspiring stories and important details.

Even if we are tracking biomarkers, we must know the ‘normals’ are shifting as the general population, from which they are derived, are getting sicker. Staying normal is no longer a healthy option. As Ken Ford says, “Normal is Homer Simpson.” (But I do aspire to be a cartoon character, so boo to you Ken Ford).

People can see their Keto get dirty over time and then rejoice in the healthy vibes when they get back to clean Keto, or drop the dairy, or ease away from high oxalate foods, or whichever rabbit hole looms most apparent.


I dont know, It seems to work just fine but I am tempted by sweets once in a while but I usually resist. I’m insulin resistant so even if Keto kills me it’s better than dying from diabetes complications so I’m in it for the long haul. When I’m too old for it to mater I’ll eat ice cream.

(John) #13

I do keep an eye out for new approaches that seem to either make sense, or are at the very least, harmless, and worth giving a shot and monitoring the n=1 experiment.

For example - I usually have little trouble fasting, or just skipping a meal or two. And I do buy into Dr. Fung’s theories about insulin levels being involved in determining whether fat is stored or released. So I don’t snack between meals, try to have long windows of time (5 to 12 hours) of no calories, and occasionally do full-day fasts. Some of that is just to see if I can do it. I mean, being able to skip a whole day of eating without any real negative impact is pretty cool.

Other things I have tried recently, or am currently trying, are things like adding resistant starch (via raw unmodified potato starch taken as a supplement, not cooked and cooled potatoes), or eating a little raw cocoa butter occasionally to provide some satiety.

If I perceive some value, they may get added to my current repertoire of things to eat. If not, then I will stop eating them. It’s like that with anything. I tend to pick and choose based on what sounds interesting and based on some science, and don’t chase every new thing.


Great posts John. I feel calm reading them. Thanks for your input.

[Knock on front door sound effect] Can I talk to you about Vegetarian Carnivore? :wink: (You need to imagine JP Sears saying that, he is my guru)


Off grid is intentional. Saving the environment for human existence via other avenues than veganism in front of a 75 inch plasma screen.

I’m in an as yet rare and unburnt part of the country. We did have some firebugs set some fires last week. But the local rural bushfire crews put them out quick smart. Unfortunately the fuel load is high.

You stay self as well Sky and look after those lungs. There is a lot of oxidative stress happening east of the border.


Yes, the forums have lots of rabbits. Digging holes in dogma, one would hope.

You make me think of my old mate @atomicspacebunny! She is a gem.

(Bunny) #21

The title of the thread is the key to the mystery?

You do not ever stop being a fat oxidizer (ketogenic) or a carbohydrate (glucose) oxidizer.

When one of the two or both quit working correctly, then pandora’s box opens and the reset button needs to be pushed.

No matter what your eating, it will always be about the sugar and you will always go in and out of ketosis because of sugar/glucose and insulin or glucagon.

So it would be impossible to think you are not going to be in ketosis at some point, even on a high carb diet or think just because you quit the diet you are escaping ketosis…lol

Welcome to the hotel ketogenic forum, you can check-out anytime you like, but you can never leave…muaaah!

(Windmill Tilter) #22

It’s amazing how much damage a few hundred screwed up kids can do. They’ll never catch even a quarter of them. It doesn’t bode well for the future.


Only the person doing the eating can truly tell if benefits are happening that are so much improved…staying on that plan they eat is worth it enough to do just that and see where it goes. I think most people who try to change never give it enough time.

One can move sideways, backward, and still all the time be moving forward when it comes to their food decisions and their benefits they receive while eating whatever.

For me personally the more I try to chat out things ‘about food in depth’ to a deep level, and because we are so different in personality and life experiences and medical situations, it always seems impossible to corral all this thinking into a small one size fits all sentence. I don’t think we can.

I think we follow the paths we are meant to follow. In that we all want change, we will all do it our own way to make it work and what suits us so that usually ain’t ever gonna be the same.

Did I answer that kinda the way you were asking? I am not sure LOL

(Full Metal KETO AF) #24

I’m really glad you didn’t add “mostly plants” to that list or I might have thought you were Michael Pollen incognito!



First I went back to the previous diet. But keto “worked”, I just missed my vegetables. It was a pretty nice low-carb diet without processed stuff and almost no lactose, grains and legumes. I felt right there. So I had it easy.

When I went low-carb, there was no way back at all, just forward.

Now that I do carnivore, I still can (and will) go back to keto but it can’t be the same as before, I changed too much.
I always do this, keep something I like (even if it’s a negative keeping so I keep avoiding things), change things that may need it, add things I missed or find useful… And we will see. I jump back too if it amuses me (or can’t resist). I just come back, usually very soon and don’t go way too far for long.

I don’t worry, I do what I can and my body handles the things it must. It’s not probable that someone will force me to eat high-carb or low-fat (or worst of all, both at the same time), ever, for longer that I can handle well enough.
I always have options.

(Bob M) #26

I have tried resistant starch, including heating and cooling rice and potatoes, and probiotics. No benefit, only detriments.

Tried Dr. Davis’s probiotic yogurt. Could find no benefit. He says it curbed appetite. I often ate multiple servings (made in about 6 ounce cups, could easily eat two).

Tried Paleo, but I find a lot of this just causes blood sugar excursions, like sweet potatoes. Also, a lot of plants, like sweet potatoes as an example, treat me badly. Same with zucchini.

Was on a very low fat, very high carb diet for years. Caused depression, mood swings, major bowel troubles. Rice cakes, anyone? Non-fat “cheese”? Wouldn’t go back to that if you paid me.

Normal wheat causes me issues, like asthma, allergies.

I don’t believe that “Mediterranean diet” has any real definition. Also, I don’t think olive oil is good for you (or at least the few RCTs there are say it isn’t). I don’t mind olive oil, but if you’re trying to lose weight, it’s too high MUFAs and PUFAs. I also think nuts and avocados are too high in PUFAs, and nuts always cause me to overeat – always – and I don’t like avocados. Will have the occasional guacamole, though. What else can I eat?

I don’t mind fish, but I don’t think we need to eat it.

For now, I’ll continue to experiment with keto/low carb. I also like fasting 1+ days and eating fewer meals per day. Even when I started eating low carb, I was eating too many meals per day. I like not eating, as much as I like eating. I’m currently experimenting with a diet that’s as low in PUFA as I can get and as high in saturated fat as I can get. I plan on doing carnivore, no dairy, high fat carnivore, this year.

(Heather Meyer) #27

Wise move Bear…wise move :slight_smile: