CICO is a myth.
It’s not the calories, it’s the type of food that matters. Fat, protein, carbohydrate.
Listen to the latest 2KetoDudes podcast with Megan Ramos. She speaks of mixing it up by purposefully overeating fat.
Our bodies are regulated by hormones, not calories.
Ok whatever… that myth took me from 220 down to 146 with 9% bodyfat in less than a year.
I keep telling you folks the less fat you have the harder it gets to lose. Your also carrying different kinds of fat. Trick is learning how to get to it.
Not trying to jump on you. I will tell you that for every study there is a counter study. This goes across the board for all types of body manipulation practices. Bodybuilders, athletes etc. etc. You have to find what works and what your capable of. When it stops you change it up. How extreme your willing to go is all up to how bad you want to manipulate your body. Thats where people get riled up. You dont get a body without sacrifice. Keto seduces people in the beginning because you can literally do nothing and eat rediculous amounts of fat and drop weight. Then the hard part comes and they either become content with 20-30 pounds of fat on them, get sloppy and start gaining it back slowly, or they throw in the towel and gain it all back.
I will say this… you cut out calories while fat adapted you will burn storage fat. Your body does not have a choice.
To the OP… if your gaining fat you need to push hard to get things under control as fast as you can. I only allow fat gain when i am trying to create new muscle nuclei spending 3-5 hours on weight training. Then when I have had enough I run massive calories deficets to shead the fat back off. Once gone its back to the weights.
That is simply not so. The other “choice” your body has is to reduce your basal metabolic rate. If you cut calories beyond the point where you are able to support your basal metabolic rate with the amount of fuel you can provide from body fat, then it’s very likely this will happen.
Another post from @richard explains this well:
Your results are not necessarily predictive of what will work for others. We refer to this as n=1, and those of us who’ve been around the forum for a while usually refer to that shorthand when we’re relating what has worked for us, to be clear that it’s exactly that, an experiment with a cohort of 1.
For those with sufficient body fat, reducing calories to 0 can be a great way of making rapid progress, and even fasting with some fat/broth supplementation can have great results, as @ron-coleman is demonstrating daily. But to assert that reducing calories will always work is simply wrong. For some it will, for others it won’t.
We’re not all here to “cut” for a bodybuilding show. Lol
Show me the science.
And no, your body is not the science.
Maybe you’d do better on a bodybuilding forum.
Advise members here to severely restrict fat and overeat protein will lower their ketones, they may damage their metabolism by slowing it down, and make them sweat cat piss too from extremely excessive protein.
We can only burn fat at a set rate.
The peer reviewed science is here:
I am not saying replace fat with protien. i am saying cut calories. If you can fast even better. I do 72hour fasts train as hard as I can. If you dont burn fat like that your not human.
Ok good because exceed 70% protein, and you’re no longer ketogenic.
if you get high enough protein (65% of energy) on a low carb diet, it becomes a regular glucose burning diet and no longer meets many of the other standards of a low carb diet. Of course you don’t make ketones with FFA and insulin at those levels.
Crazy huh??
LOL it works when you actually do it. You cannot fast and drink bulletproof coffee all day then throw your hands up and say it doesnt work.
your body is adapted to running on fat… stop eating to get to the storage you carry. This is not rocket science. This is not bodybuilding… it is body manipulation.
I am not a bodybuilder but I do pick there brains a lot. They are some of the smartest people out there when it comes to actually getting results.
Keto is just the intro. Most people dont start this for health… they want to lose fat. The health is a great side effect. As you continue to get lower and lower in your bodyfat you get more and more health concious… you just have to.
Statements like this show a lack of understanding of the underlying science of obesity and the effects of insulin on lipolysis, or the burning of body fat for energy.
All it takes for the body to preferentially store incoming calories, even when below the level required to maintain energy balance, is the presence of insulin.
It’s unethical to do certain studies in humans, but some rat studies have shown that higher levels of insulin will cause rats to preferentially store energy as fat while their internal organs, including the heart waste away.
In normal individuals, insulin drops to acceptable levels fairly soon after a meal, but in the estimated 3/4 of the population (75%) with some form of insulin resistance, that doesn’t occur, so insulin remains high for an extended period of time, making it extremely difficult for fatty acids to be released from adipose tissue.
i have never been out of keto. You just have to set your body up. Go lift weights for four hours into muscle failure and see if 70% Protein intake throws you out. It just doesnt happen unless you have so little muscle on you that you cant use it try for 500- 700 reps
and what if it does? go for a run and burn all the glucose up. You will be back in keto by morning.
your article you quote is dealing with people who dont do anything. Just laying around trying to lose weight. I dont believe in that. walking is easy and is a good stepping stone. It also burns fat while running zero calories very very well. There is no downside to walking…no injuries…no exhaustion.
people worry way too much about insulin. Its becoming a crutch in keto for staying fat. You shouldnt be getting massive insulin spikes on keto unless your eating keto junk food, artificial sweeteners, and have bad nutrition (yes its possible on keto). If your getting big spikes you will know it after a while. Once you get really adapted to this you can feel things like insulin spikes.
That’s not how insulin works.
I can water fast for 5 days, draw blood to assay for insulin and be over 80 pmol/l (13.7 mIU/l to be precise). I’ve been ketogenic for 3 years (on the 20th of april) and lost 80 lbs, and become non diabetic - yet I still make plenty of insulin.
Look at where that puts my lipolysis. That is fairly typical for a type 2 diabetic, and most obese people share the same pattern whether they have actually been diagnosed with high glucose or not.
The question you have to ask yourself is how can an obese person with high insulin ever lose weight? If their insulin is high enough to stop fat cells releasing their payload even when they eat NOTHING.
The answer is that an obese person’s fat cells are no longer obeying the insulin message. What is holding them back from using stored energy is not insulin’s inhibition against lipolysis, but the fact that insulin ALSO blocks long chained fatty acids getting into their mitochondria to be burned.
When an obese person loses weight on keto it is because keto has dropped their insulin low enough to allow the use of fat for energy at the level of their mitochondria. When they stall it is because their fat cells are finally starting to obey the insulin message to inhibit lipolysis - so now they have a working system that can burn fat and store fat when insulin is high but they still make more insulin than a normal person.
A stall is actually a sign that you are becoming healthier, your fat cells are becoming un-deranged… Congrats.
The next step is to lower your production of insulin so that your fasting level is below 5 mIU/l (30 pmol/l) and then you will continue to lose weight, That requires time exposed to lower chronic levels of insulin.
For people who are not badly deranged that could take days or weeks, for some of us it takes years. Mine used to be 19.8 mIU/l, it’s now 13.7 mmol/l - I’m still above the rate that lipolysis is inhibited but the trend is my friend.
Strategies that can help;
In other words Keep calm and keto on
I can water fast for 10 days, then do a 100km bike race … still don’t see ketones above 3.5 mmol/l indicating I am still making enough insulin to inhibit ketone production even though I am clearing insulin at a prodigious rate.
Besides it’s not a matter of calories in vs Calories out. Unless you are running a marathon, no matter how much exercise you do, the amount of energy your body uses just sitting on the couch dwarfs it - and you don’t control that, that massive amount of calories out is directed by how much energy your body THINKS it has access to and if your INSULIN is high and your body fat is working then it doesn’t include body fat in that available energy calculus.
Stephen Phinney did an experiment once where he locked people in a met ward for 5 weeks, fed them a hypocaloric diet so they would lose weight and then had a randomized half of them run on a treadmill for 27 hours (up to 2 hours a day) while the rest just sat on the couch and watched TV.
http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/0026-0495(88)90011-X/abstract
If you believe Calories in vs Calories out - you know the answer - the treadmill group lost more weight, Right?
Actually no the couch potatoes lost more weight (but not significantly more) - the reason is the runners burned LESS energy when they were not on the treadmill. By the end of the first week the runners had a 10% lower resting energy expenditure and it kept on dropping by a further 17%.
I have 9% body fat in my legs, 50% around my abdomen. I’d be interested to hear @davidvincent’s hypothesis of how the body could spot reduce body fat without the effect of insulin - that right there would be a billion dollar idea.
The reason some people lose weight by reducing calories and others don’t is determined by the amount of insulin they make. Evidently @davidvincent has low basal insulin. What works for him will not work for someone who has high basal insulin. But I expect that he is still convinced that all fat people need to just put down the metaphoric donut and get off the couch - and it will work for them just like it did for him.
no not at all. But you have to work hard and not just buy into every second guess notion that comes out on a daily basis. You have to try different things to see what works.
50% fat on midsection? i know what you can try or do which worked for me but if your not open it wont matter. i learned it from s few bodybuilders and some experimentation of my own. It worked. Carried that fat my entire and finally broke through it at 40 years old. Its hard but worth it.
I am not looking for an argument though and your backhanded comments are not appreciated. Try not to take that as a jab because its not. If you have something to say to me just say it to me. If you want some ideas i am more than willing to help you and others hear. I dont gain anything from being on this board other than to try and steer people in the right direction and sidestep the land mines that will get in the way. I went through that and made some mistakes and the idea is that i can help you and others avoid them. I dont really need any help with the keto body fat stuff because i have found what works for me and what i am capable of. I will take ideas on increasing muscle nuclei or force timing an adrenaline rush during fasting though!
also… please knock of the threats of chopping my head off in the private messages. I know its not serious but telling me i am somehow trying to instigate conflicts and threatening to chop my head off is kind of absurd.
I read the mission of this forum at the top of this page when i joined. Share experience and talk Keto, fasting etc. Thats what i have done. So far in the last 24 hours i have been insulted, threatened, and ridiculed. I am an understanding and patient guy with folks entering into something as radical as keto and fasting but people need to calm down a bit.
OK spot reduction. I will give you a few quick tips since your probably going to axe me.
key words… heat, blood flow, circulation. Increase those in those areas along with fasting and you might get the results i have. 500 reps of core exercises and try to work to the point of hitting your intramuscular fat. Then use a back massager and physically break it up if you have to with your hands. Then hot hot baths. Belly fat neoprene wraps and sleep on a heating pad.
its work and you have to be dilligent but thats how i finally broke down the last 5-10 pounds and it was worth it.
I have to go through that every year when i do my post winter bulking spring time cut to get back down to such a low body fat percentage.
@davidvincent Do you have any peer-reviewed, double-blind randomized scientific studies that have tested the hypothesis that you just presented:
“heat, blood flow, circulation. Increase those in those areas along with fasting and you might get the results i have. 500 reps of core exercises and try to work to the point of hitting your intramuscular fat.”
Or, is this just a homemade invention / remedy of yours?
As I mentioned in my PM to you, I don’t have time to waste educating people who wind others up, for their own entertainment. It was friendly advice to pull your head in or I’ll chop it off. It’s a metaphor - just in case you were confused. It means - I see what you are doing (even if you don’t), stop it or we’ll walk you out the door.
I’m still hoping you learn that lesson, because right now you have a made yourself a mountain to climb to become a productive member of this forum.
Vascularization is not the problem of splanchnic fat. We are pretty well vascularized around our organs. Massage and heat probably feels good, but it wouldn’t treat.
The root cause is insulin. If you ever see a person who carries their weight around their abdomen (Visceral and subq) then you can be pretty sure that they are a hyper producer of insulin. Get their insulin down and that melts away.
I am over 80.5kg of lean body mass, and I do endurance cycling - I have a solid core. It’s building long muscles and depleting them that lowers insulin. Abdominals are just a marker for low body fat - they can’t contribute much to using energy let alone clearing insulin.
That’s the problem. You are a special snowflake. What worked for you, won’t work for someone with a different hormonal milieu.
If someone with low insulin, eats fewer calories than they burn then they can mobilize body fat to make up the arrears.
If someone with high insulin eats fewer calories than they burn, insulin blockades their use of stored energy, so the law of thermodynamics demands that they either increase intake (hunger) or they reduce consumption (lethargy).
The lever is not FAT on your plate, it’s INSULIN … lower insulin and you get access to stored energy and that reduces hunger and increases the energy you have available to go to the park with your kids.
its not homemade. I wish i could take credit for it. There are some articles on spot reduction and things you can try. You would have to look around but they are on the web. I used to spend some time talking to bodybuilders because once i dropped the initial 50 lbs or so you just start hitting walls. Fat loss is kind of funny. You get greedy. You can lose 50 lbs feel great and just keep wanting it to come off. I just committed and made the decision i was going to go for it.
the high reps thing i heard Arnold talk about a few times for the mid section. The heat and circulation thing I picked up from some articles and bodybuilders.
Plus side your core will be very strong and you will never have back problems.
what exercises… heres what i did. I opened my anatomy book. Wrote down all the muscles in that are and found ways to work every single one. I used resistance as much as i could. 500 reps isnt much when your doing high rep set. I probably was hitting 1000 reps a day at the end.
be careful if you have a weak back. I suffered from a severe muscle imbalance for ten years that would land me in bed for 4-5 days at a time where I could not walk. I would literally be army crawling to the bathroom. I had to ease my way into it. I have not had a back injury in three years.
OK… so you want studies. I know there are those who like to read through countless studies that come out every week. I am not one of them LOL. I am interested in what people have done that worked. Its a practical approach which has served me well. I used to read all these studies and found that its useless because every time a study comes out another one comes out to counter it. Thats where I stand on all these studies.
I came to the conclusion that basically bodybuilders are the most useful as a source of information because i would be blown away how they could transform themselves. I was lucky enough that a couple guys liked my attitude and intensity and were jumping all over me with things I could try that worked for them. Believe it or not i get along with pretty much everyone until this place. Never been jumped on like this but whatever. Some of the things the competition bodybuilders suggested didnt work to well but a lot of them did. The core abdominal spot reduction tricks worked. I will say that people in that sport know every trick in the book where 1/2 a percent of bodyfat can lose them a competition. The discipline and focus they have is scary around competition time. its not my thing but i have the utmost respect for them.
So thats what i am trying to do for some of you. Give you suggestions and ideas to check out and try. I can tell you if you dont do anything you will get zero results. Dont be afraid to leave a comfort zone. Staying in a comfort zone is what turns you fat. If you find something works and hate doing it learn to accept it and just do it instead of thinking of how awful it is. Before you know it you will be used to it.
i have had my body go through so many changes that I pretty much said the heck with it and put faith in it that it would find a way.
example… when i first did keto and was adapted I tried working out… i really did… couldnt do it. i tried running… heck no. Now no problems.
when i first started fasting i felt like i was going to die. Tried working out…started seeing stars . Tried running… passed out on a rubber track at around 2am. estimate that i was out cold for about 30 minutes. I knew it was coming because i know the signs and tried to push through it with a few tricks. i was absolutely fine when i regained consciousness. i knew it was a possibility going in as i had felt some strange occurrences doing HIIT exercises. So I picked a rubberized track in the middle of the night to try it. Talked to the muscle heads and they said walk until your body is ready for it. So I walked… four hour walks wrapped in neoprene. This year… When i am on a hard cut I dont eat for three days, lift heavy and run 1 hour each day. My body learned.
this is what i mean by faith in the human body. I dont believe in special snowflakes but i do believe in sacrifice and hard work. I have never met anyone who made great achievements because they are special. They all have put the time and effort in even if you dont see them do it.
